Tuesday
Jun142011
A civil post deserves a civil reply...
Tuesday, June 14, 2011 ...a rude post, not so much.
Last week, blogger Casie Stewart wrote a post ranting about an annoying family with a bunch of kids that she was stuck at the airport with. The post was a commentary on what was annoying her, accompanied by pictures of Casie, with annoyed expressions on her face or flipping the bird, along with captions saying things like "enough already, tame your kids" and "f%@k *uck f&c# f*%k" and "LOSER". I hadn't seen her post at the time. If I had seen it, and if she was someone I knew or whose blog I usually read and enjoyed, I would probably have let her know that I found her post immature and rude.
Or, in the spirit of "tame your kids", perhaps I should have written her mom an e-mail asking her to control her daughter. But I wouldn't do that, because I understand that the circumstances that lead someone to be loud, annoying, rude or offensive are more complicated than "bad parents". I'm sure Casie's mom is lovely. In fact, she left a lovely comment on Casie's post saying: "Oh Casie, we travelled so much with you when you were little I am sure we probably annoyed some people too. But must admit, you were cute. Miss you. Lots of love mum xoxo."
But ultimately, since I don't know Casie and don't usually read her blog, I probably would have just rolled my eyes and continued along with my day if someone had pointed it out to me. She may, like many of us, learn the hard way how difficult it can be to travel with kids (especially if there are delays, as it seems there were in this case). She may, with time, change her mind.
But just as everyone is entitled to their own reaction and opinion when they encounter something that annoys them in an airport, people are also entitled to their own reaction and opinion when they encounter something that annoys them online. Erica Ehm, from the Yummy Mummy Club took it to facebook and posted a link to the blog saying: "This rant was a bit much - what people who haven't had kids think of those of us who travel with kids." Erica got a total of eleven comments from six people on that facebook link. Hardly something to get upset over.
So far nothing to write home about. Just another day on the Internet.
But then it get's ironically interesting
One of Casie's friends told her about Erica's facebook comment and link and Casie decided to write a post about it. In it, she asked why Erica didn't write her directly or leave a comment instead of posting about it behind her back on facebook. I found this interesting, since Casie wrote a post on the Internet ranting about this family instead of politely approaching them in the airport. Not that I'm advocating approaching them, but I'm also not advocating rudely ranting on the Internet about it. Essentially, I don't see any difference between what Casie did and what Erica did, except that Erica was significantly more polite than Casie.
In her post, Casie wrote: "Why didn’t you share your thoughts from a mothers perspective? Maybe you have some great ideas on how to deal with a situation like I was in?" You know, I have a pretty good idea why Erica didn't do that. I mean, why would she be motivated to leave a civil, respectful and helpful comment on a post that was full of "enough already, tame your kids" and "f%@k *uck f&c# f*%k" and "LOSER" along with associated facial expressions?
If Casie had written a civil and polite post talking about the dilemma she found herself in and wondering how she should have handled the situation, maybe someone would have left a civil comment explaining why kids are sometimes annoyingly out of control in airports and giving suggestions for what she could have done in that situation. But I usually don't expect that someone who is flipping the bird and calling people a loser is very likely to be open to listening. So I wouldn't bother.
Casie's follow up post was a lot nicer than her initial post, which is why I'm replying to it right now and saying that I respectfully disagree about Erica's approach being inappropriate given the situation. I don't think that a rude post deserves a polite reply.
Interestingly, in her post, Casie noted:
"Let’s hope this incident inspires people to raise their children with manners & etiquette. We want the younger generation to be kind & respectful. Don’t we?"
Absolutely, we do Casie. Which is why next time my kids flip someone the bird and call them a loser, I'll be so proud that I've raised them to be just like you.
Reader Comments (68)
Well said - This is why I read your blog.
Well done. I fail to see how the kids were misbehaving...last time I checked, making over dramatic faces and taking pictures of them is also pretty annoying.
Oh, i LOVE this post. LOVE. Especially your last paragraph. How on earth can people be SO hypocritical without even realising what they are doing?
Yikes, asking for politeness while flipping off families? And posting a link on facebook, especially with a very mild comment such as hers, is generally considered publicity, not "talking behind her back". No one is obligated to share their opinions in your comments section.
And her original complaints? They are running out of diapers. They are searching for their boarding passes. These are the things that are driving you crazy? God, that's actually a pretty tame trip. We were landing last week and waiting in the back of the plane to disembark, my 3-year-old announces, "I pooped!" Well, okay, I felt bad. I wouldn't really want to be the people waiting around us, but hey, that's part of life.
If this lady gets sick on a plane, will I be all "OMG, F*CK, LOSER" ... no. I'll either try to help or stay out of the way with my opinions to myself, which is what she should have done.
Reading her original post, and assessing the complaint-worthiness of the things she moans about, my guess is that if this family wasn't around, there would be other passengers getting on her nerves!
Spot on! This reminds me of Barbara Kingsolver's essay "Everybody's Somebody's Baby": http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/18/specials/kingsolver-hers.html
Love this, Annie! Also, Phil in the FB post? What the poop? Since when is an airport an adult setting? Also gotta love (not) the only man posting telling all the women to "get a sense of humor". Classic.
Your post is perfection. I think it's incredibly interesting that the difference between our etiquette of staying out of things and minding your own business, and blogging about your thoughts on a situation you've observed have become incredibly blurred. If Casie had used more appropriate language to explain her frustrations would that have been enough? I'm not so sure. The kicker is that she had the gall to be put out when someone did it to her instead. That is scary. Ugh.
The reason I'm weighing in on this late is because I was attending a travel writer conference, in which our niche session included more than 40 people who write about varying aspects of family travel. Unfortunately for Casie, our collective goal is to encourage more parents to show the world to their children.
You succinctly pointed out that the only person behaving badly in the original situation is Casie. She is setting herself up for some seriously bad travel-with-kids karma, should she ever choose to have children.
Urgh. Get over it. The fact that you guys are STILL going on about my little blog post rant is hilarious. Great comments Mama's, you bitches are ruthless eh.
I'm not a bad person. I have great parents. I traveled with them heaps as a kid. My family is from New Zealand, very long flight! I know a bunch of great kids and will have some of my own one day.
Check all the comments on my blog post. Maybe they will inspire you and you can spend more time writing about me. :)
http://casiestewart.com/excuse-me-for-a-minute-miss-erika
Today I blogged about beer. Do you like beer?
It's amazing how things get SO BIG on the Internet... Things we wouldn't give a second thought to in the pre-net days. It's exhausting actually. I think I'll write about that. Thanks for the inspiration! ;)
Wow. What an awful person.
I can totally see this going viral, though: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Qxs6lTiZY2Q/TfO3ZO1GDGI/AAAAAAAAXKA/gEQWh9ySlIw/s640/P6103313.JPG
EXACTLY!
I do like beer. I like this too:
"I know a bunch of great kids and will have some of my own one day."
THAT is what is so hilarious. Our hypothetical kids are always more behaved, aren't they? Unfortunately, it's just one of those things that you don't understand until you are there.
I get so tired of the way some people without kids act as if those of us who have them are second class citizens who don't deserve to fly, go to restaurants, etc. Yes, I chose to have kids but I didn't choose to have family scattered across the country and I can't chose who I am seated close to on a flight.
As parents, we do the best we can to help our kids behave in situations like this. We do everything we can to minimize the disruptions to people around us. But trust me when I say flying for 7 or 8 hours with multiple connections is hard with a kid. I am pretty sure that mom had a harder day than Casie did. I would also bet people who react like Casie are the reason most moms dread flying in the first place.
FYI, @Casie, I read the comments on your original and follow up posts. Inspiring is not the word I would use. And as for advice, be a grown up and walk away if you're frustrated. Leave the three outlets you were using and move, if the kids are annoying you. That takes a lot less effort than rude faces and blog rants.
Get over it? Perhaps you should heed your own advice.
How about you go through all my blog posts and see what else 'inspires' you? There's over a thousand. Or maybe, go read a book to your kids. Thanks for all the links etc.
Now THIS, is annoying. Mom's you win!
You know what else is annoying? People who write and publish as a hobby not bothering to learn basic grammar.
Oh yeah, I went there.
Dude, I was inspired, which is why I commented. My guess is you have a *non-vapid drivel* filter that blocked it and any subsequent comments from me.
Your mum must be so proud. I'll be sure to teach my child proper use of apostrophes as well as "etiquette"... Does that include calling people old bitches on Twitter?
"Go read a book to your kids"
That is a fairly common silencing technique. http://www.phdinparenting.com/2010/05/20/mothers-shouldnt-have-opinions/" rel="nofollow">Mother's Shouldn't Have Opinions.
I see a lot of "young people should just shut up and get a real job" stuff out there too. Personally, I prefer not to engage in that type of thing and instead discuss specific arguments, opinions or actions on their own merit.
Crystal_b, I was just going to post the same thing. People, especially people who consider themselves writers, should know how to use commas and apostrophes appropriately!
And Casie, we are all perfect parents with perfect kids until we actually have children. Just wait - someday you'll understand. We're all just doing the best we can - traveling with kids is not easy, even with normally well-behaved kids and organized parents. A little compassion (and less vulgarity) would be appreciated - someday, if you're lucky enough to become a parent, you'll be asking the same of your fellow travelers.
Okay, that was mean. If this were Facebook, I'd just delete it, but now I have poster's regret.
Moms = plural noun
Mom's = singular possessive
People take you more seriously if you take the time to edit your posts.
Why don't you ask your mom if she ever was afraid she'd run out of diapers on a trip. There's not some magical divide between perfect children and bratty horrors casued by parenting style. Sometimes perfect children turn into bratty horrors after flight delays, missing naps, painful ear-popping, and too many strangers and stimuli. I guarantee the mom you're complaining about had a tougher day than you did.
Agreed. I tried not to generalize in my comment and maybe didn't succeed but telling me to go read to my kids is unnecessary. I am not sure why I need to tell Casie that one was at preschool and one was napping ...
And Casie, the number of blog posts you have isn't important to me. Trying to help you empathize with another person and look at things differently is. I thought that was what comments were for.
That was amazing Annie. I wish my thoughts were as organized as this post.
Complaints about children (from the childless) always make me think of that Simpons episode where the childless people in Springfield form a group. Have you seen it?
You're right Cassie. Moms win. Because every time you open your proverbial mouth, you make your self look more ignorant. No matter how well mannered your children are, they will annoy someone in a public place. I promise. I know because I used to be a little like you. Then I had kids. And my kids have fantastic manners almost ALL of the time, but they are still kids, and kids don't have the ability to evaluate their surrounding and think "I want to throw a fit right now, but I'm in an airport, so I won't." And since I have had kids, even very well mannered ones, I have been yelled at by jerks like you because, for example, my 2 year old, who is suffering from a bilateral ear infection was screaming while we were in the drugstore getting her medicine. I know there are bratty kids out there, but making statements about people you don't know and how they have raised their children when you don't know the circumstances of their situation is immature, and THEN calling someone out for "talking about you behind your back..." It's a perfect example of well raised children not always having the best manners.
PS Don't mess with moms. You will loose.
Sometimes, when you run out of interesting ideas and thoughts and your job is to get attention, you bash other people. We want the younger generation to be kind & respectful. Don't we?
Every time I pop by PhD in Parenting, there's something interesting to read, discover and consider. I think there's an opportunity here to look at issues, to look at ourselves and to learn.
Thank you. : )
I am so depressed after clicking on her blog. It is simply awful and shouldn't have got the air/internet time it has.
Your reasoning is spot on. Thanks for taking us through the reasoning process with this. Enjoyed this post.
I'll add a Facebook page reaction to a public blog post isn't "behind your back." Sending DMs and emails are.
Ha! Your last sentence totally MADE MY DAY.
I was not in on the brouhaha, and I'm glad I wasn't. I have enough work to do what with "taming" my kids and what-not without wasting time on THAT.
I seriously love this blog!
I think we should all leave Casie alone for now because we all know that she is bound to have children one day & suddenly her self-righteous attitude will transform into some serious embarrassment. Obviously she's not getting it now, but god knows that one day, she will ;-)
My husband and I will be travelling internationally from Bogota to Toronto and then on to Ottawa sometime this fall... with our three boys (ages 8, 4, 2) and newborn daughter... EXPECT CRAZY.
I think I'm in the minority here, but I took Casie's post as a bit tongue in cheek, having some fun while in the airport - not as a general commentary on people with kids in the airport (I did not read any of the rest of her blog though). I'm not a fan of the F-bird, but I can't honestly say I've never flipped one myself (particularly while driving) - can you?
Yikes, I went to her site to read and the posts were not so inspiring, not great examples of human empathy, but you know, she can have her opinion and at least she ISN'T turning to the family and making them feel awful. Venting on one's own blog is pretty allowable, even if reading it sucks for me as a parent. But the comments were something else. Yikes. And her comments here too! Yowch. For someone who vents she doesn't like criticism. What better way to emulate Ghandi's Be the change you want to see in the world than to point fingers at moms and yell "BITCHES!" We all have better things to do with our time and creativity. :/
We all know how this one will end. We were all perfect parents BEFORE we had kids. So, just wait...you know the saying about karma...
Strangely, I am still thinking about her blog. What struck me was the sheer ugliness of it. The extreme close-ups of her face looking so aggressive and her tone lacking in any sort of empathy. So very ugly (and I don't meant physically - just the whole disposition)
And her criticisms of the mother seemed so ridiculous - she wondered aloud where her boarding passes were!? Who hasn't done that with or without kids!?
Did anyone notice the irony in the fact that Casie is in PR?!
Haters gon' hate. Love all your comments. Keep talking about me guys. It's great :)
Casie, I'll point out: Presumably you wrote the post in order to incite parents to change their objectionable behaviour. Yet if someone else writes a post pointing out your own objectionable behaviour, it's "haters gonna hate". Perhaps everyone could learn something from each other, hey?
Zchamu, I wish that online discussions actually DID change people's opinions. Ostensibly, that is what we're all doing - learning from each other in this intercourse (yes, I said it), but how many times have you seen it happen? It's rare to hear someone say, "you know what, now that I think about it, I was wrong." And how often do you have a conversation and feel like the person you're talking with is just waiting for you to stop talking so they can add their bit.
This discussion *is* ironic in that it also gave the "lifestyle blogger" exactly what she wanted (albeit probably inadvertently on her part). If she's typical, she'll take a cue from this - inspired by her additional blog hits to try to create more of a division between bottle blonde party girls/mothers in order to raise her hit count. She seems pretty self-absorbed but maybe she is a nice person who just acted in poor taste and, unfortunately, can't take it back since once it's on the internet...
But really, to get insulted by someone you don't respect in the first place (I mean, what does this blogger actually give back to the world - besides talking about her life which we don't - or shouldn't - care about and copious pictures of herself) why should we care? Actually, perhaps she does do some good in the world, some charity work or a cause other than "look at me, I'm FUN!" In that case, great. If your blog proceeds go to support something good other than your beer and hot pants fund, I would find her less annoying. Might even like her. She's probably FUN!
However, I side with her that parents should contain their children (I'm pretty sure everyone reading agrees so it's a moot point), people who talk on their cell phones in airports should leave the seating area so we don't all have to hear you - you think you are interesting and that we want to listen in, but you're not and we don't - and only assholes hog all the outlets at the gate. What I find more annoying that noisy kids? The freakin' televisions. Lifestyle blogger, can you maybe start a campaign about that? Get those TVs with "CNN" or what I like to call "not actually real news" turned off? Thanks.
"But really, to get insulted by someone you don’t respect in the first place (I mean, what does this blogger actually give back to the world – besides talking about her life which we don’t – or shouldn’t – care about and copious pictures of herself) why should we care?"
Exactly. Am bloody annoyed that I clicked through to her horrendous blog and now have her extreme close-up aggressive face seared into my brain.
Don't agree with you comment that "parents should contain their children" though. What on earth does it mean to "contain your children"? Tell them to sit in one place and not move for the entire hour before boarding?
Heh, I love how Casie keeps checking back in to see what we are saying about her. The curse of the egomaniac - an unrelenting desire to hear yourself being talked about even if it is almost entirely negative.
I'll post a summary of what I did over at Cassies blog, because from the sounds of it she isn't posting "the haters" comments.
I had been to the post that day (clicked through Erica's twitter stream) and after reading the post and being annoyed with it clicked the little red X and promptly forgot about it. I figured I could leave a comment saying get a clue and grow up and wait until you have kids, but decided to take it for what it was...a blog rant. Do I agree, no, but if you can't be an asshole on your own blog were can you be one.
Traveling with kids is not something any parent enjoys. It's hard on mom's hard on kids and generally a pain in the neck, but sometimes it has to be done.
As for her comment about manners and etiquette - those seem to be 2 things she forgot while at the airport.
Me too. *sigh*
I find this whole thing depressing, really.
Well, Cassie is allowed to have her opinion and voice it via her blog, Twitter, Facebook or where ever else she pleases and that is fine by me - she's clueless about traveling with a child in the airport so how would she know? I remember being like Cassie and not having children and thinking the the kids at a restaurant were wild or the parents needed to "control" their children. Ha! Ha! Now I have children and I there is no "controlling" children. Its the same as her mom now not being able to control what she writes on her blog or what photos she posts.
We aren't haters in my opinion and this isn't the mommies against those without kids - nah! We mommies that travel with kids just understand the frustration, exhaustion and would rather have more empathy and compassion verses judgement against us. I'm sure the mom in that airport got the sense that Cassie was unhappy or annoyed with her and the children (we aren't stupid we can sense this stuff), I feel like we are defending that mom and our other moms in that boat saying send her a life vest don't drown her!
Shucks, maybe someday Cassie will have a child and she'll need our support and compassion - then she'll understand. Until then she'll have her opinion like all those without children do and when the table turns the light bulb will go on.
Hahaha. This is hilarious. Casie is awesome.
I really respect the posts and discussions in PhD in Parenting but this one I am confused about. Here is what makes no sense to me:
If PhD in Parenting and others disagree with Casie's blog, then why give it more airtime? Why write a post about it and spend time and more time commenting about it? This is a very polarised situation and I fail to see how writing a post about that other post and continuing to disagree with it here would advance further compassion/understanding towards parents travelling with kids or just parents with kids out there in the big bad world. Perhaps someone can enlighten?
When my kids get upset about something their sibling has said to them that makes no sense, I often tell them to just think about whether they need to spend energy on responding to the remark if they know the remark is untrue and will not change their situation. For example: kid1 says to kid2 - you have poopy pants! kid2 says 'no I don't' and kid1 repeats 'you have poopy pants!'.... ad nauseaum Well, once you've set the record straight, how does the back and forth help? it doesn't, in fact if kid2 refuses to engage, kid 2 will run out of steam and let it go. Bill Cosby wrote a neat book called The Meanest Thing which proposes a similar approach: just respond 'so?' to such remarks and the other person runs out of steam.
Carla:
Good question.
As I mentioned in my post, I wouldn't have responded to her initial post at all. I would have just rolled my eyes and moved on. I only mentioned it here because it was important for context and background in addressing her second post.
I chose to address the second post for two reasons. First, there was the possibility that Casie didn't realize at all the irony of what she was requesting of Erica. Asking Erica not to bitch publicly about her post, when she had bitched publicly about this family. Asking Erica to have manners and use etiquette, when she hadn't demonstrated any of that in her initial actions. Second, it amused me and I thought it might amuse some of my readers. I guess that is also the reason that our kids say "poopy pants", although the audience for their type of humour is a bit younger than the audience for my type of humour.
Oh snap!
casie was being pretty self-absorbed and lacked compassion for the parents at the airport. it's so embarrassing that she largely represents social media in toronto. i can't wait to see how her attitude and opinions change over the next few years as she gets older.
she should have contacted Ehm privately first though, instead of posting people she doesn't know's full names on her website. she just made a bunch of new enemies.
we are - don't take people like casie as representative. she can be fun at parties, but who can take her seriously???