Covering up is a feminist issue

Note: Since writing this post, some of the images have been made unavailable. However, I also created a video version of the Covering Up is a Feminist Issue message, which I would encourage you to check out and share.

Yesterday I read and commented on a post where a woman, mother, and published author was asking breastfeeding moms why they can't cover up. She wanted to know why women can't just be discreet. That led me to look up the word "discreet" in the dictionary and interestingly Merriam Webster says it means:

Having or showing discernment or good judgment in conduct and especially in speech: PRUDENT; especially: capable of preserving prudent silence.

According to that definition, it would seem that asking or telling someone to cover up is, in fact, indiscreet.

But is refusing to cover up indiscreet? I don't think so. There is a wide range of opinions on what constitutes good judgment with regards to how women dress themselves and how much they should or should not cover up. Any time a woman is told to cover up or told to undress, I see that as an attack on her person. Telling women to cover up and telling women to strip down are frequently used tactics for oppressing women. There are both practical and philosophical reasons why no one other than the woman herself should decide how covered or uncovered to be.  It is easier for onlookers to avert their eyes than it is for a woman to dress in a way that makes her feel uncomfortable.

When it comes to dressing, I think women should be able to choose from a wide variety of options. It should be up to them to decide how they feel comfortable.

Burka by niomix2008 on flickr

P1010131 by brookesb on flickr

Saturday Night Smile by LollyKnit on flickr

Paola by Gary Denness on flickr

19/03/07 by Sagrado Corazón on flickr

#4 rach in the rain by rachel sian on flickr

Leaning Back by Diana Blackwell on flickr

CLEAVAGE ON A LAZY AFTERNOON by fabiogis50 on flickr

Sesion Color by Master/Cyber on flickr

Sandra IMG_6836 by -Andrew- on flickr

Denim Skirts by Anita Robicheau on flickr

Hi mom! by Magdalena O! on flickr

365 day twenty-two: keep a light on by Foxtongue on flickr

When it comes to breastfeeding, I feel the same way. There is no one definition of how covered a woman should be. Some people think no skin should show at all. Others think anything goes. I don't think it is the place of anyone other than the breastfeeding mother to decide whether or how much to cover.

Magical Milk Pic-O-the-Week on welcometomybrain.net

Magical Milk Pic-O-the-Week on welcometomybrain.net

Madeleine hides under the Bebe au Lait cover by freeformkatia on flickr

Jones Beach by Joe Shlabotnik on flickr

DSC_5552 by 150hp on flickr

080308VanSickler073 by littleREDelf on flickr

Mamella by Amadeu Sanz on flickr

purchased from istockphoto

sosta in paese by Matteo Bagnoli on flickr

at 2 years old...by @noborders on flickr

Bonding by Mike.Hanlon on flickr

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but when it comes to dressing and breastfeeding, appropriateness should be decided by the woman herself. If other people don't like it, they should discreetly avert their eyes.

Comments

[Brenda]

As an avid supporter of breastfeeding and trying to make it work anyway possible. As well as someone who covered in the early months and by 4-6 months found that it was not mutually acceptable to do so. Thus, I think no differently of someone who chooses to cover up while nursing in public. I don't think it does a disservice at all, anyone with or without a child knows exactly what you are doing!

Oddly enough, I have actually found that when I am nursing my daughter in my Ergo, no one has any idea what we are doing - so go figure? I have had extensive conversations with male salespeople with my daughter attached to me - literally! They probably thought she was sleeping or just listening!

@maripoopoopoo

[phdinparenting]

I loved Bella Bands for that purpose. I had them still from my pregnancy and they worked with whatever I was wearing on top.

[KJ]

I am a Canadian living in the US, and the ONLY place I have ever been asked to cover up or LEAVE while nursing was in Canada. Once in a pool in Regina, the other time asked to completely leave the premises (the dutiful employee telling me "the manager doesn't allow 'that' in here") in a office supply store in Virden, MB. I haven't had opportunity to nurse in Europe but I always imagine that it is a more friendly place towards such things. I hope never to be proven wrong!

[Amy]

It's interesting to note that in some cultures that expect women to generally cover their bodies, the breasts are not considered to be a problem when they're showing because they give life to the future of the people.....

[Nat]

I think your point about telling women how to dress is a form of control... I completely agree.

[Stephanie]

I posted on one of my sites recently on this topic also. Keeping things covered really isn't just the mom's decision. It's the baby's also, and I'm dealing with that rather intensely just now with my baby, who is just about to turn one.

Breastfeeding is pretty much an athletic event to her, she's all over the place. And if there are other people around she'll constantly pop off to smile at them. "Discretion" isn't going to happen with her if I nurse in public. But that's not a problem to me. If she needs feeding, I'll feed her. A quiet room is advantageous if available, but that's all it is to me. I much more often just stay where I am and do my best. Family and friends are just used to it.

[Megan]

I'm curious what you mean about Australia because that's one place I've been where religion seems to have VERY little effect on people's choices. From my own personal experience, I don't know a single person there who would call themselves religious by any measure.

Australia was incredibly breastfeeding-friendly in my experience. The US could learn a thing or two from them.

[Megan]

I agree, this is a great article!

I have a personal quirk - I tend to be more modest when I'm around people I know. If I'm in a public place with strangers around, I don't care as much who sees what, but if I were around male friends whom I would see all the time for example, I wouldn't be so quick to whip it out. Anyone else like that or is it just me?

[Caitlin Roberts]

Wonderful article! It should be published on the front page of every major news publication. Thanks for sharing.

[Michael @badassdadblog]

First, I totally agree. Not just about breastfeeding, and not just for women, though this is clearly an issue that is of particular importance to women, and breastfeeding mothers among them.

Now, at the risk of being stabbed with a thousand feminist blades for asking, I have a question. Is it OK to look?

I'm not offended by naked breasts. I like naked breasts. I like looking at them. I also like touching them, but that, clearly, is inappropriate except by invitation, and not what this post is about. So, I wonder, if we all agree each person should decide how much of themselves to display to the world, does that mean we (the world) are free to look at what they decide to show?

[@sweetbabboo]

Yes! I absolutely 100% agree. I breastfed my son until he was over two years old. At first, I was uncomfortable feeding him in public and would cover up. However as he got older and I got more comfortable, using a blanket just didn't work or seem necessary. He would often pull it off anyway leaving me fumbling and showing more than had we not used it in the first place. Eventually I became more comfortable with my own body and nursing skills and no longer felt the need to cover up. If/When we have another, the world better watch out... or, I mean, discreetly avert their eyes. ;)

-Abby

[lindsay]

They could be equal, though. We have to concede that there may be some women who are not coerced in the way you are talking about. I don't know of any specific examples with the full burqa, but I do know many women who choose to wear hijab, and it is as fully their choice as it is mine to wear jeans. In any case, don't want to derail any further, so I do agree with you, there are definitely issues around the wearing of the burqa, and the role of women in those societies - no question. I'm just wary of applying 'western values' to people outside of western culture.

[phdinparenting]

@Michael:

From my perspective, it is okay to look, but rude to ogle. Just because something is visible, doesn't mean it is okay to stare. If I had a mole, a tattoo, painted toenails, a birth mark, or any other distinguishing feature, I would be okay with you looking at it, but would be put off if you did nothing but stare at it the whole time instead of looking me in the eye when we were talking.

[pamela ~ the dayton time]

I feel the same way. Looking is fine. Staring, under any circumstance, breastfeeding or not, is just rude.

[Michelle @ doudoubebe.com]

It's ok to look - not ok to get so close that I can feel your breath on my areola and not to stare so long that I looking at your face while you are looking at my boobies. Also, no touching the baby's head.

Thanks for posting this Annie - I talk to many first time moms who feel that they 'ought to' cover up. It's ok with me - but I think it's also important for those of us whose personal modesty doesn't require that to be open:

1. women can feel free to do what's right for them: I've had several encounters where women told me that seeing me breastfeeding my baby/toddler made them feel like they could do it too. I certainly felt that way early on.

2. everyone can see babies actually breastfeeding - we'll never have the changes we need to make breastfeeding the norm if most people never actually see it happening (though I kind of like those big loud nursing covers for that too!)

Thanks - an insightful perspective as always!

[Artemnesia]

Yes! Look! And then smile! A remark validating the child's cuteness never hurts either.

[Michael @badassdadblog]

Thanks for the replies. It seems the rule of thumb is essentially no different from any other circumstance, which makes sense and makes it rather easier to manage. I suppose one of the central points of this discussion is there should be no double standards, either for those deciding what they are comfortable showing the world, or for those of us who happen to observe them. Dress to be comfortable. Look, don't stare. Got it. :)

[apprenticemom]

I notice that the breastfeeding pics are all of relatively young babies...lets not forget about nursing toddlers or preschoolers. If you really want to challenge people's assumptions and feelings about nursing-- whether in public or in private-- ask them how they feel about seeing a mother nurse a child older than about 18 months in public. It seems that even some avid feminists and supporters of breastfeeding feel some discomfort at the notion of a "child" rather than a "baby" being nursed in a public space.

[Bridie]

Covering up never seemed necessary or convenient to me, nor did I feel my daughter would care to be covered in a towel or blanket or whatever while trying to eat. I have always been happy to nurse wherever, whenever and wouldn't dream of asking someone to leave so I might have privacy. They are always, however, welcome to do so if *they* feel uncomfortable ; )

[Thomas Langwell]

I respectfully disagree with this. There are rules and laws that prohibit what is viewed as public indecency. I would prefer a woman with exposed breasts or genitalia to cover them, for the same reason I would expect it of a man with exposed genitalia. It's simply not appropriate in public environments. As a parent who would prefer not expose his 8 year old boy to nude breasts and genitalia, I think it's reasonable to request people abide by the same standards that Cinemax does before 9pm.

I'd like to stress. I have no problem with the act, or even the act in public. What I do have a problem with, is my child seeing a bare breast on the subway or in a restaurant. As a parent, I feel I should be able to take him in public without exposing him to such things. And I don't even ask for that much. Most of the women in the above photos are perfectly fine. I would only find two of the last three questionable.

Yes, people have rights to their body, just as people have rights to speech. But you can't broadcast certain things. You put penthouse on the Jumbotron at Dodger Stadium, there will be issues. You yell fire in a crowded theater, there will be issues. "averting your eyes" and "not listening" only go so far. Your rights end where the rights of others begin.

[phdinparenting]

@Thomas:

I can understand people not wanting their children to see sexualized images (e.g. Penthouse) in public, but breastfeeding is certainly not sexual and neither is the simple act of being topless. As a parent, I would like my children to be exposed to breasts being used to feed a child before they are exposed to them in a centrefold. But if we tell moms they have to "cover up", then that is unlikely to happen and it only serves to perpetuate the myth that breasts are primarily or only for men's pleasure.

With regards to rights, there is no right to never be uncomfortable. I don't find man boobs particularly attractive, but for some reason men feel they have the right to walk around topless. I would not equate breasts with genitalia and I do think that if men have the right to walk around topless, women deserve that right too. Thankfully in some jurisdictions, like Ontario and New York, that right does exist. Thankfully, in many jurisdictions where it is not okay to walk around topless, women are explicitly allowed to expose a breast for the purposes of breastfeeding.

[phdinparenting]

@apprenticemom:

I agree that we need more women with toddlers and preschoolers to breastfeed in public in order for it to be normalized and accepted too. In choosing these pics, I was focused on getting the right progression of completely covered to completely uncovered and also having some ethnic diversity and I didn't focus explicitly on the ages of the children being nursed. That said, the second to last one is listed as being a two year old and I have http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/07/01/wordless-wednesday-happy-canada-day-lactavistas/" rel="nofollow">posted pictures in the past of me nursing my two year old.

[Cathy H. @frugalgirl]

Considering all of the inappropriate exposure of breasts I have to see when I walk through the halls of the local middle school and high school, I find it sad that people could even be offended by breastfeeding. Seems to be more women who are offended, too....those are probably the ones who prance on the beach in a thong bikini!
Cathy

[Paul Rapoport]

Are you raising your child to be intolerant and unjustly discriminatory towards women? Are you telling him that women's breasts have to be hidden because you think they'll cause sexual public disorder every time a woman exercises her right to be without a top? That you blame women for this fanciful projection?

"It’s simply not appropriate in public environments": most American states and Canadian provinces disagree with you. You suggest that your discomfort should be universal, and that it has the power to curtail others' rights.

As for: "Your rights end where the rights of others begin." Where does that come from? It has no legal or human rights standing. People who say it think it's fine for them but not for others, which is a very basic logical and moral contradiction.

In most places in North America a woman has the right to breastfeed in public and take her top off to do it if she wants to. You're right that averting eyes goes only so far, but that distance includes the present case.

[Loukia]

Lovely photos, Annie, and well-written post, however as far as the Burka goes... I know plenty of women wouldn't really choose to wear something that covers them up so much, but they have NO choice, and that is the biggest problem of all, fearing for your life if your face is exposed to the public.
As far as breastfeeding, I did what I could to cover up if I was in public, but if my baby was crying and needed to be fed, I didn't really care at that time who saw what/who thought what. I remember being on a plane and feeding my 6 month old, and no one cared, and I wasn't really covered up, either.
One time, something bothered me, though - I was in the nursing room at Rideau Centre, where they are about 4 or 5 nursing chairs in a quiet room with dim lighting - and I would always go feed my baby D there - and once, a man was in there, just standing up, near his wife. I didn't start breastfeeding until he left the room. I found that VERY uncomfortable!

[Boy Crazy (@claritychaos)]

Beautiful. I love your approach to this, Annie.

[slee]

I have said it before, and it's the only thing I too often see missing from this argument. The social interdiction against the exposure of a woman's nipple, juxtaposed with the complete liberty of males to expose theirs, is legislated sexism. I don't want to walk around looking at nipples all day, male or female, but the notion that it's wrong to let someone possibly momentarily see a *functional* nipple being used for it's biological and evolutionary purpose is nothing short of sexist oppression.

[phdinparenting]

@Loukia: In a lot of countries, they have no choice and not having choice is bad. However, in Canada I do know of women who have that choice and who choose the burka. They may be influenced by their upbringing (aren't we all?), but it is their choice now.

[phdinparenting]

@slee: It is legislated sexism in those jurisdictions where that is the case. In some jurisdictions (e.g. Ontario, New York) women have just as much right as men to walk around topless. So it is more of a societal issue than a jurisdictional one in those cases.

[Thomas]

Your rights end where the rights of others begin. This does have legal precedent. Don't believe me? Use your Constitutionally protected right to freedom of speech to enter a crowded theater and yell "Fire". It's against the law. Why? Because endangering the life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness of another is a violation of their rights. And that's exactly where yours ends.
It has a lot of legal and human rights standing. You cannot use your rights to violate the rights of others.
While some may hold the OPINION that breast feeding is a beautiful act, it is just that. Opinion. I can consider urination a beautiful thing. Doesn't mean I won't get arrested for whippin' it out in public.
Personally? I find topless men distasteful too. But it's legal. There's no legal justification for me to say otherwise. There is here.
If you have an issue with the law of the land, then campaign to change it. Raise awareness through positive reinforcement of your message.
But screaming from the rooftops that anyone who disagrees is a sexist pig, and is raising their children to be the same? Is hardly a way to engender any form of respect, support, or discussion.
It's an excellent way, however, to create an intractable opposition to the very thing you're trying to progress. So, I ask you, are you interested in change? Or are you just here to vent at all the 'sexist pigs'?

[phdinparenting]

@Thomas: I still don't understand which *legal* right of yours I am violating when practicing my *legal* right to breastfeed in public.

[Thomas]

My concern isn't with "sexualized images". I'd really prefer you not misstate my point. It's with partial or total nudity in public. I prefer to have a handle on the rate at which my baby boy grows up. I prefer the discussions as to what these things mean to come at my pace.
If some of you would prefer to parent your children differently, that's your right. As it is my right to parent mine.
You're right that there's a double standard on the liberties afforded to male and female breasts. It exists for the same reason you won't see a male topless bar. Because topless for males doesn't have a socially-imparted meaning. It does for females. I am not opposed to changing that one way or the other. But such change must be ethical, and legal, and, for those truly wishing discretion, with courtesy and respect to differing views... Not attacks on them as sexists, which I've already received for my initial post, which I feel was quite respectful to the opposition.

For any discussion to be truly open-minded, the feelings, beliefs, and opinions of others must be respected, even if they are not agreed with.

[Thomas]

I've stated previously, PHD... I have no problem with breastfeeding, in public or otherwise. What I do have a problem with is frontal nudity. If you disagree with laws in place on that, campaign to change them. But don't support posters above who call concerned parents sexist, simply for disagreeing with their view.

[Kat]

Thomas, your right to find breastfeeding distasteful or immodest (when it is neither) does not curtail the child's basic human right to food, and the mother's legal right to give her child food.

You say you are concerned with your son seeing breasts or parts of breasts, while used for feeding a child, and you compare it to broadcasting pornography at a sorting event. Can you not see how big a difference there is?

I do NOT mind my sons seeing breasts used for their God-given purpose of feeding babies, in fact I vastly prefer them to grow up viewing that as natural and normal than any alternative (seeing women as sexual objects, or seeing any exposure of the breast for any purpose as evil, for example). You do have a right to raise your child as you see fit. I hope you will raise him to be considerate of others, especially newborn babes and infants, as Scripture explicitly states, and the law of the land commands.

[Brenda]

@Thomas Good luck with the discussions with your son, coming at your pace - unless you live in a bubble. What is inappropriate about breasts doing what they were biologically meant to do and either ignoring it or taking the opportunity to teach your child? It is only that you (and others) are sexualizing breasts and that this your own issue, biologically female breasts are meant to provide nourishment to a child.

[mystic_eye]

It could just be that she was trying to be nice.

I know when I am at motherhood maternity and attempting to juggle a nursing 2 year old in my arms AND look at clothes the staff OFFER the change rooms. But its just that, an offer, they aren't upset (or at least store policy says they aren't allowed to be upset) with someone nursing either on the store or the change rooms -but it looks uncomfortable to be nursing one handed while looking at clothes.

As far as I know a blanket in "coach" is a special favour, its like extra peanuts.

[phdinparenting]

@Thomas: The laws where I live are fair and fine, so I'm good! :)

[Thomas]

And biologically, a penis is meant to dispose of waste and assist in reproduction. Should we, therefore, support males in their ability to go to wal-mart flapping in the breeze? Things all sound so clean when you refer to things biologically. Clinically.

When you step outside, and see what things actually are? Go ahead. Do a google search on "breast", "boob", and "tit". With the possible exception on the last term for a rather cute type of avian, look at your results and tell me that breasts don't have a strong sexual impact in society.

And tell me that it's not my right as a parent to speak my mind for moderation on how much of that I expose my child to. When I can perform said google search and get a top list of doctors and health articles? Then I'll accept your clinical evaluation. Until then? It's gotta factor the social climate.

[Thomas]

These laws, you mean. Right? Because if you want to claim that there are no double standards in your legal system, then I'll claim that no human wrote them.

Most people, however, are fine, so long as they're not the ones being affected. You want to know where I campaign on oppression? I look at China and Tibet. Or China's detainments and beatings for those of a non-state religion. Or any third world country where men with guns can shoot the poor, and the poor must thank them, and buy the very food donated by humanitarian efforts from their murderers.

That's where I look when I want to combat oppression. As long as that exists in the world? I'm not "good".

[phdinparenting]

There are plenty of issues in our legal system (my partner is doing his PhD in law, so I'm well aware of many of them via his work), but I meant the laws regarding equality in the right to go topless are fair and fine.

[Thomas]

I've stated this a dozen times, and it seems I'll have to state it again. Kat, I do not disapprove of breast feeding, public or otherwise. Children need to eat. What I disapprove of is the exposure and nudity. I've said this several, several times, and people continue to ignore it. Whether it's because you haven't read this view (my first post, 2nd paragraph, first two sentences, "I’d like to stress. I have no problem with the act, or even the act in public."), of because you're willfully disregarding it, so as to pigeonhole me in the stereotype you may have of people who disagree? I don't know. I can't really speculate.

But my issue with this? Begins and ends with public nudity. That's all. And it is possible to nourish a child healthily while maintaining that. So, by that standard, your argument holds no water, as I am not opposing the feeding of babies.

[Thomas]

Oddly enough, ask the average white male in the US 150 years ago what he thought about the laws he had in place? He'd say the same thing.

In other words, satisfaction with the laws does not mean they are fair. Only that you believe them to be.

[mystic_eye]

I think that is why many women wean their babies very early. And often its mostly just their family that make them feel that way, which is sad.

I nurse anywhere, any time, and it doesn't bother me. (Well ok the park when it was -20C and the very male music gear store were a little weird). But its the ILs that dislike me nursing. They would leave if they were at my house. They were constantly asking me to put the baby on a schedule so the baby wouldn't nurse when they were here (but of course what never occurred to them was that the baby nursed BECAUSE they were here and baby didn't like being away from mommy and with the weirdos). Also I dislike nursing in front of my FIL because he is a butt/boob grabbing alcoholic asshole with all the usual "when's my turn" like comments.

On of my uncle's family is worse than what you describe. I'm not kidding when I say to nurse in their house you have to use a cover AND be in a room with a closed door. They also "couldn't" be in the delivery room when their teenaged daughter had a very premature baby (28ish weeks). Luckily my aunt (and theirs) was there and luckily she came by my aunt's house a lot. My family has no problem with nursing. My aunt even nursed past one year. Although my mom does sometimes make "comments" about my 3 year old still nursing "on demand" and my grandmother wasn't that comfortable with nursing during pregnancy. But my mom always makes "comments" about things, and they are never consistent. One day she likes my parenting and my kids are angels, the next I need to lay down the law my kids are demons (and she doesn't even necessarily have to have seen them to switch).

There are quite a few studies that show family support, and in particular husbands, are key to how long women nurse. Of course there are plenty of women that ignore all the lack of support and go on and nurse anyway. But it is far easier if you at least have some friends on your side and hopefully a husband that backs you up whether he really agrees or not.

[Megan]

The problem with your argument Thomas is that in most cases it is nearly impossible to breastfeed a child in public (which you say is ok) without a split second of partial or frontal nudity in many cases, so while you pretend to be logical and reasonable, you are consistently contradicting yourself and, in effect, "yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater". You yourself are misinterpreted or misstating people's responses to you (eg annie's response that the "laws were good" was clearly in reference to laws regarding being topless yet you acted as though she was referring to any and all laws of the land). Teaching that there is nothing inappropriate about what is "visible" with breastfeeding might help combat the sexualization of breasts that you bring up regarding google searches.

[mystic_eye]

I think, if it wouldn't draw even more attention, and if it weren't for the religious connotations to it (I certainly wouldn't want to be offensive to anyone) that there are days and situations where I would wear a burka. I think in some ways it would be liberating to not be judged on your looks, and to not be judged on your ability to look someone directly in the eye.

I think for many women it would be freeing, if there weren't the religious connotations. We are taught to be polite and not to "threaten" men -not to "emasculate them", not to take their power away.

Its the same reason many people wear mirrored glasses, even on the subway/underground/metro where they are clearly not needed. But my manners won't allow me to wear sunglasses (or hats) indoors *lol*.

I too have gone around topless, though not on crowded beaches. But its legal here and I've done it. I also walk around the house in various states of address and don't really care if people see. Its my damn house, don't look in my windows if you don't like it.

The women I have seen wearing burkas, including the ones covering the eyes, seem very empowered, very confident. And very fun. There was a group of about 8 women in burkas with 4 kids under 6 at the park. On of the women was clearly a grandmother if not great-grandmother. But women had a blast. They played tag both with the kids and on their own. They went down the slides, played on the climbers, etc both with and without the kids. And I know that many "Canadian" parents give other parents strange looks when they go down the slides, or swing, or really play with or without the kids. Its very strange.

But I think there is something powerful in the burkas, even the ones that cover even the eyes. And inasmuch as there is "men's" jobs/work/position/duty there is also "women's" jobs/work/position/duty. And each side is very powerful and within each side members are allowed their own power. In many ways, excluding some of the fringe groups, men and women do have "separate but equal" roles, which is certainly a kind of feminism. Yes of course I believe women can be doctors, lawyers, presidents, and whatever. And men can be midwives, nurses, childcare providers, etc. But when, in my eyes, some feminists go wrong is when they confuse "equal" with "the same".

[mystic_eye]

But we're all ok with telling teenaged boys to pull up their pants, right?

*very tongue-in-cheek*

[Thomas]

People also consider reading a book without arms 'nearly impossible'. I've seen both done. You'd be amazed at what a bit of practice can do.

I was not misinterpreting annie's "Laws are good". I was placing it in perspective. I was showing an unfortunate tendency for people to care only about the injustices that they perceive are being visited upon them/people like them.

Look up oppression. The word is commonly used in reference to events such as Germans and Jews, Romans and Christians, Wiccans and Salem, Massechusetts, Tibet and China. Think about whether these injustices are in that league before labeling it as oppression. It's a strong word, with a strong history.

I absolutely agree, on the other hand, and support, any effort to desexualize the female breast. For two things to be treated equally, they must BE equal. Male and female breasts are not, due to disparate social treatment. Correct that view? You remove the opposition. Teaching that there's nothing inappropriate about breastfeeding will further that. However, as long as that view persists, I cannot, and will not, support any form of nudity in public. This is not restricted to breastfeeding, but I'm not about to issue a free pass to it either.
In my opinion? Movies such as "Me, Myself, and Irene" do more damage to that goal than any, with scenes that take breastfeeding, and turn it into something sexual.

[mystic_eye]

Also don't forget to mention:
*belly "bands" which cover "muffin top" many women make them out of cut up undershirts.
*layering with tank tops
*adding an unbuttoned shirt, or a jacket or shawl just to block the "side view"

And using wire and hem tape (or actual sewing) to make nursing covers. I think those "nursing tents" like the bebe au lait often go tooooooo far for some women. But the semi rigid part to help you see the baby and keep the fabric off baby's face has a lot of merit. I'm not sure what type of wire would work best, it could also be plastic which would be more washable but not bendable. I think even a standard sized receiving blanket with something down one side to stiffen it would be enough for a lot of women to feel comfortable, particularly to start.

Also there's got to be a way to layer swimwear. Personally I do not like pulling my whole breast out of the top of a shirt (which is why I dislike most nursing shirts) -I don't care what others do obviously. But I'm thinking a tankini top over a one piece, or a bikini top under a one piece/tankini, or something so you could do the one layer up one layer down thing would work, but I need some mommas who own more than one swimsuit to test it out for me ;-)

[mystic_eye]

Well friends are different.

You would tell her if she had spinach in her teeth right? So tell her if her outfit is awful. Of course you're not going to dump her if she says "but I like it".

I tell my sister off all the time for sticking her boobs in my face -because she doesn't realize she's doing it. Its fine with her family, and her friends that know her but its going to be a problem if she does it to say her boss. Or during an interview for university admissions!

So its fine, to tell people you know, that they look like an idiot. And strangers if they have food in their teeth, toilet paper on their shoe, or whatever.

[mystic_eye]

Its not the nipple. Teens wear mesh tops with either no bra or a lacy bra underneath and you can see at least areola if not actual nipple