Monday
Nov082010
Approaching Heaven, Mummies and Infinity
Monday, November 8, 2010 
Once you let your children out of your sight, a magical thing happens: they learn things from other people. They come home and say a word you never taught them. They ask about a food you've never served. They treat you to a story or a song they learned somewhere else. They tell you about special days and why we commemorate them. Those things make me smile.
But they may also bring home nuggets of information we wish they hadn't. Things that are false. Things they are perhaps (subjectively) too young to know. Or things that go against our beliefs. The discussions that follow the sharing of those tidbits are more delicate, which is challenging when they catch you off guard like my friend Emma was caught off guard recently.
In her post Just Like Heaven, Emma wrote about something her son shared in the car one day:
He tells us that God is everywhere,and sees everything. He speaks of Heaven, and God’s presence up there. There’s a mention of angels.
In her post, which I hope you'll read, Emma talks about the challenge of responding to statements like that when the child is presenting, as fact, something that contradicts your own beliefs. The challenge of being respectful of what someone else believes, while at the same time sharing your own beliefs. We've had the discussion about God a few times, most recently leading up to my niece's Christening, because I didn't know what they might hear at the ceremony and how it would mesh with our own world view. But there have been other things that have come out of left field and caught us off guard.
In my reply to Emma's post, I wrote:
My son’s friend told him that mummies exist and that they come out at night and go into all of our houses. We handled that the same way that we have handled the discussions about God or about whether infinity is a number. Basically, some people believe in it,some people don’t believe in it, you can decide for yourself what you believe in.*
I would separate religion from beliefs though and expect to have a much franker and more prescriptive discussion about that. I’ll talk about some of the good points (such as community, like you mentioned above) and the bad points (acts that are hurtful towards individuals or groups).
I hope to teach my children to look at things critically and I think that their education on God, beliefs, and religion is one that will take place over many, many years, just like their education about the birds and the bees. There are things that a 3 year old needs to learn and those are different from the things a 13 year old needs to learn.
It isn’t easy, that’s for sure.
*To be perfectly frank, I'm pretty sure we told him that mummies do exist, but they are all wrapped up in Egypt and not going into anyone's house at night, but that his friend is free to believe whatever he wants. I just thought it was a good example of a situation where kids' friends tell them things that are absurd (and believe me, there have been many from this particular friend who claims his dad is a "scientist" as his back-up for his wild beliefs).
I think that not having a religion and not believing in God makes our job as parents both easier and more difficult. It is more difficult because we can't explain difficult things away with "Jesus loves you", promises of Heaven, or threats of Hell. We can't write things off as sins and leave it as that, a more nuanced conversation is required. But at the same time, it is easier, because I don't have to explain why a good God would allow so many injustices in the world and because I feel like there is more nuance and more flexibility in building an evolving set of personal values that are not necessarily better or worse than someone else's.
Some of these conversations are difficult, but I'm glad that we have them and I look forward to what my children bring to them. I'm sure that they will continue to bring home interesting information they have learned elsewhere and I hope we'll continue to be able to create an environment where they feel welcome to share that information with us and where we can have an open discussion about it.
Have your children brought home interesting "facts" that you didn't agree with? What do you do when your children learn things that contradict your own beliefs?
Image credit: Ulrik Sverdrup on Wikimedia Commons
Reader Comments (64)
We ask lots of questions like, "What do you think about that?" "How does that make you feel?" "Do you think that's true?" Then, I tend to say things like, "I'm not sure I agree with what so-and-so told you about xyz." "I know some people believe x. I believe y. Some day you might decide you believe x or y or something else entirely."
It's not so much 'facts' that have been difficult for me to broach, as preschool-aged definitions of gender. It seems to me that many 4-year-olds have very strict views of 'girl' vs. 'boy'. And countering that respectfully is not easy. Not even a little. Especially because I know that there are many adults who would share their opinions.
My son wouldn't go to the bathroom by himself for a few months because the Holy Ghost was watching him!
I find your perspective very interesting as my husband and I face a similar situation with our kids. We openly discuss religion, politics, and especially what they hear at school from friends and teachers. Living in rural Missouri, they come home with a lot of stories about religion and explain how they feel like there are few kids here who question the existence of God like they do.
A few months ago my step daughter (7 years old) had trouble going to sleep every night. Like clockwork right before bed she would get scared. When we asked her why, she had a hard time explaining but DH got her to admit it was because she was scared of dying. Yikes. It was hard not to have an easy answer for her on that one.
Loved reading yours and Emma's posts. For one, I sometimes feel alone in my agnostic/athiest beliefs and the difficulties that come with those beliefs when raising children. For another, it got me thinking again about how to approach things like this, whether it is religious in nature or when my son comes home and tells me his friend's dad is one of the last Indians.
So far, my approach to everything is to hit the library. If it comes down to beliefs, I like to approach everything open-mindedly and with the understanding that all people (even children) have the right to their own beliefs. My children will make those decisions with as much information as I can provide to them though. And with lots of critical thinking involved!
Yes! Sometimes it feels a little lonely out there as an atheist/humanist. This is so on the mark, "not believing in God makes our job as parents both easier and more difficult. "
We're dealing with lots of talk about death right now, and how easy it would be to just say we go to heaven, that we'll see one another again so tempting. Then my 3.5 year old daughter blows me away with something like this, “No Mummy, they haven’t passed. They’re dead. But we can remember them, and we can think about them, and we keep it here in our hearts.”
ps. For little ones the book, "Remembering Crystal" by Sebastian Loth deals with death in a manner congruent with this humanists beliefs.
Parenting Beyond Belief and Raising Free Thinkers are both excellent books for non-religious parents. He brings up the point that small children will try on many "hats" to figure out their beliefs, and that one day your child may profess to be believe in God and want to go to church (probably because their friend(s) does), but a few days later may have forgotten all about it.
My little one is too little yet (only 3 months). My dad is atheist, and instead of teaching my sister and I about religion, he just ignored the topic. This left me completely unprepared for the tiny, conservative, very Christian Midwest town we moved to when I was 12.
My five year old twins started school in September. As it turns out, their first day of school was the day that I transformed from The Knower of All Things to the Household Dummy. Their peers and (especially) their teacher took my place. If I happen to contradict the differing opinions that they are now exposed to, I am abruptly reminded of my new position in life. And that's okay. I want my children to hear the words that I don't use. I want them to hear beliefs that I don't subscribe to. I want them to acquire knowledge about religion and traditions that I don't know about. I want them to be more than I am. And, each night at the dinner table when we discuss of their new "Facts", I want them to listen to all opinions and judge for themselves. That's the behaviour I role model because my behaviour is far more powerful than someone else's words.
These conversations don't get easier as the children get older. When my daughter was little, she went to a religious Jewish Day Camp, because, frankly, it was cheaper. She came home talking about 'Hashem' (the yiddish word for God). At that point, since she was two, it was easier to leverage Hashem's power over her behaviour than argue (Would Hashem like it if you did that?) My husband doesn't believe in any type of organized religion, but we have tried to present our children with the traditions and the identity of their heritage so that they can make their own choices when they are older. I personally hope they will choose to keep our traditions as our ancestors have fought hard so that we can be here. It's difficult living in a world where they are surrounded by Christmas, Easter, and other holidays we don't participate in. Answering those questions of why we don't have a tree in December can get a bit tricky. As is explaining why they cannot tell the other children that Santa doesn't come down the chimney. Now, the questions are getting more difficult: 'Why do I have to be Jewish just because I was born Jewish?' Can be Buddhist if I want?'. Our answer? You should explore what you want to explore, and be who you are going to be. And believe in whatever you think is right.
Mara:
I have a Jewish Day Camp story too in my post called http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/11/10/no-sinners-in-my-house/" rel="nofollow">No Sinners in My House (about half way down...the story about "Mikey's lunch").
When my daughter gets a little older I will be able to explain to her why I and many others believe in the Creator, and I'll also be able to explain why a loving God would allow injustices to happen, and that he promises that he feels as badly as we do about them, and he is going to fix them. I look forward to showing her exactly why we feel that way, but I will allow her to reason and make her own decision about what she is willing to believe.
No one, not a child or an adult, should have to believe things without reason or evidence. Even though she's not even a year old yet I show her the cats, and the birds, and the flowers, and talk to her about the personage who made them, and what those creations teach us about the personality of the creator. It's little things like that that will help her to reason later on, as she gets older, and she can think through the other evidence for herself.
Whether children are taught to believe in God, or not, their beliefs will be challenged by others. If they don't have a strong enough conviction based on evidence, they won't be able to explain what they believe or defend it in the face of contradictions.
We are atheists who struggle a bit (at least I do) with my husband's very, very Catholic family. Every time we visit, his mom wants to take the kids to mass with her. I know it's in part to show them off, but frankly, until my kids no longer believe in Santa (they're 6 and 3), I don't want to get into the whole discussion. This is one area of raising kids where I feel like there are landmines awaiting me and I don't exactly know how to prepare for them.
Great post. Great questions. I responded on my blog.
http://iamtotallythatmom.blogspot.com/2010/11/god-or-not-these-are-things-world-needs.html
Wait, so did you tell him that infinity is a number? ;-)
For some reason, the God thing is not really an issue for us. We told our son that God is a fictional character like the Cat in the Hat, and when asked, he has told kids at school "I dont believe on God" (he is 5).
Unfortunately, I am at a loss when he brings home violent gun and war talk from his video-game-playing friends. There is no TV watching in our house, and we dont own a gaming system, so he gets it from kids at school and I am horrified. I just dont know how to impress upon my kid that guns are extremely dangerous items and that war is tragic, not exciting. How do I handle that?
This morning my daughter told me the tooth fairy is pretend. She's three. My husband replied that he guessed she was ready for the god conversation. He and I have been talking a lot about how to approach it with her, especially with the holiday season coming up. She's so full of curiosity and I want to be sure we are able to answer her questions before other devoutly religious family members do.
I really appreciate your posts on this topic. Your post on Parenting Beyond Belief encouraged me to pick it up and read again.
When a member of our family died last year I sat down with my (then three year old) son to tell him what happened. I told him there was an accident and that D died. Nothing more than that and then let him ask the questions he needed. There is no God or religion in our house and explaining death in its cold hard reality to a 3 year old was hard but I'm glad I was true to our beliefs and values. He understands death in his, now, 4 year old way, without heaven or God or an after life. Bleak but reality. Then last night we were choosing Christmas ornaments at the store and he chose a cross he wanted to paint. I suggested that since we were giving gifts maybe choosing the gift-shaped ones would be nice since we are giving gifts to make people happy. Not even sure how to discuss religion to a 4 year old. Maybe next year ;)
If you think the conversations are hard as a parent, you should try them as a nanny! I was a full time, live-in nanny for a fabulous family. The parents treated me as a complete equal in terms of dealing with the kids, so the kids in turn treated me like a third parent - including asking me the tricky questions.
So one day on the drive home from school, the 9 yo asks "Krista, do you think rape is wrong?"
Yikes.
The 6 yo in the back seat chirps "What's rape??"
Double yikes.
To this day I'm not entirely sure how I managed to not crash the car!
My 8 year old fervently believes in God, Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and fairies in general. She doesn't believe in dragons simply because she figures they'd be too difficult to keep hidden. She changed that to fairy tale dragons when we reminded her about the Komodo dragon.
I'll be glad when the skepticism kicks in. We've discussed that fairies are imaginary, but she WANTS to believe in them too much to believe us. My husband is Catholic, as is much of the family on both sides, so I won't complain about the faith in God.
Both my older kids have dealt a lot with the boys vs. girls thing. I've made sure to point out to them that it's not an accurate view of the world. I'm hoping that even though I'm the work at home mom, they will notice that two of their uncles are stay at home dads. It may also help that two of my sisters are highly science and technology oriented in their careers, and I'm the one who handles all the computer work in our house, including the recent replacement of a power supply in my husband's computer.
Much of my family are very conservative Christians and I'm dreading these conversations. DD is 17 months, so I have time to prepare. I'd like to be able to present a balanced point of view and teach her to think for herself. More than anything, I fear my mom will NOT be balanced about it. I still vividly remember the screaming matches over going to church every Sunday for years.
It is a challenge to me because I feel that I myself am constantly evolving, and I don't know all the answers. I certainly don't feel I'm an authority on God or a higher power. I make it up as I go; I say what feels right, and I let them know that's how *I* feel.
When my children come home & tell me about church or Jesus, I may say, yes, some people believe those things.... and I'll often tell them a story of my own experience in the church growing up... or relate an experience of when we were in a church last (for a wedding)... and then maybe sing a spiritual that mentions Jesus. Songs work wonders to bridge the gap between beliefs.
But when it comes to, "We're going to die, right mom? And then what?"
that's when I'm hanging on by the skin of my teeth, because I just don't know.
...and then what....
yeah.
So then, I just say what I feel. What makes sense to me.
We're all spirits, we're all linked in this world, you, me, daddy, the trees, our friends, the oceans. We're all energy. And yes, our bodies only last so long, but we don't have to worry about that because our soul - what makes us, us - is forever. And maybe when our body is worn out, we move on to another body, and get to experience new things.
And its interesting because my children believe me. I mean, of course they do. Which is wonderful. Because I like my answer; it feels good. But its a big responsibility, isn't it? You're shaping their opinions. If I TOLD them there was a heaven or hell, they'd believe me. If I TOLD them there were 10 different gods, they'd believe me. If I TOLD them its all bunk and made up, they'd believe me.
So, I just say what feels good and right and kind and makes them think of the world as a good place. Because that to me is what's most important.
Oh I like Kelly's comment.
Thanks for facilitating more discussion on this one, Annie.
I have had a terrible fear of dying from the same age -- still do. Kids who fear dying are usually struggling with the concept of non-existence. They are often gifted children -- most kids just can't grasp the idea of one day no longer being.
While I am now a Roman Catholic, I don't think anyone should write off how "easy" it is for those of us with faith when our kids ask us about this stuff. It's not easier. Not at all. Because while I do explain my beleif in Jesus Christ and his promises to my kids, I also am honest about my doubts and fears.
I have to say, I think the sentence "It is more difficult because we can’t explain difficult things away with “Jesus loves you”, promises of Heaven, or threats of Hell," shows a terrible lack of repect for the intellect of those with belief. I challenge you to read Aquinas or Augustine and then tell me religion is the intellectually easy way out.
Here's why infinity is a number: some infinities are bigger than others. It's not a countable number, but it's measurable, using containment as a measure.
"I think that not having a religion and not believing in God makes our job as parents both easier and more difficult. It is more difficult because we can’t explain difficult things away with “Jesus loves you”, promises of Heaven, or threats of Hell. We can’t write things off as sins and leave it as that, a more nuanced conversation is required. But at the same time, it is easier, because I don’t have to explain why a good God would allow so many injustices in the world and because I feel like there is more nuance and more flexibility in building an evolving set of personal values that are not necessarily better or worse than someone else’s."
I am a Christ-follower, I believe in God, Christ, and hold the Bible as an important book in my faith, as the Word of God. But I have never, ever written things of as sins or dismissed difficult feelings and situations with catch-phrases such as Jesus loves you or WWJD. No, having faith isn't our fall-back for lazy parenting but rather I believe it informs our parenting. Since we believe that God created us to have emotions we discuss them and validate each other's feelings without shame for having them in the first place.
Oh, I have so much more I want to say! Perhaps my own blog post but for now my musician husband just got home after a long day of rehearsing and he comes bearing chocolate. Must go!
Thanks for this post, I really enjoyed it.
I totally agree with this! In fact, I think that being religious forces us to grapple with life's difficult questions, while a lot of the athiests on this post seem to just be hoping that they never come up. As a religious person, I'm not at all concerned about my kids coming home having heard other religious beliefs: we are comfortable discussing beliefs and hearing other perspectives, and we are giving our children enough education and community that they are likely to ultimately embrace our values. I'm more concerned about them bringing home offensive political views.
Krista:
Wow...I think the answer to the first one is easy, but having to explain rape to a 6 year old, that's not one I would want to do.
Really? I didn't get this "while a lot of the atheists on this post seem to just be hoping that they never come up." at all. I think most of us are talking about meeting them head on.
My kids always use the "+1" addendum to measure the "immeasurable". I.e. A googleplex is the biggest thing EVER. Nope, a googleplex + 1!
I agree Tepary. I'm not hoping the issues never come up. I just don't have canned answers for the big issues, so it is a delicate and nuanced conversation when they do come up. It doesn't mean I avoid them. It just means that it requires a lot of thought and consideration.
That's probably one of the most ridiculous assertions I've ever read.
My comment was for @Channa. I think the nesting doesn't make that clear.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately Annie. Her Bad Mother and I were talking about it on Twitter the other day. I'm struggling right now with my own beliefs of "nothing." (I got this from a book I just started reading - nothing as opposed to "atheist" which still references a belief in God - I'm playing around with the idea of it.)
When you believe in "nothing," you don't have a prescribed set of morals or acceptable behavior, there are no defined answers to why things happen or where (if anywhere) we "go" when we die. You must make your own morals and find your own answers, seek out your own community of likewise believers of nothing. When you believe in nothing there are no children's books that help you teach or guide your children to follow your beliefs. There are no easy ways to encapsulate your beliefs.
We've studied all different kinds of beliefs with Z (now 6 years old) - the Greek Gods, the Ancient Egyptian Gods, Buddhism, Christianity and so on. We've lumped them together as a way to say that some people believe this, some people used to believe that, we believe they are myths - stories that people tell to explain why X happens or what happens when you X (sin, die, etc). But there is no overarching "threat" that defines her (or our) behavior - no God to sin against, no hell to dread. So why should she - why should we - be good, kind, compassionate, caring, or giving? Basically, we've summed it all up by saying that we live by the Golden Rule: treat others as you would have them treat you. So far, she's been pretty respectful of other people's beliefs but I anticipate more conversations - especially as she gets older and starts having more conversations with other kids.
Hmmm, I wonder if this is an issue of semantics. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. I don't believe in a god. I do believe that the vast majority of humans have the capability to "make your own morals and find your own answers" without prescription from a 'higher being' and for those resulting behaviors to be positive. Should I teach my daughter a way to treat others, herself and life based on my humanist tenants? Or am I teaching her belief then? As I reread your post I think we're on the same page. Or at least a similar page. I think my query is with this statement, "no children’s books that help you teach or guide your children to follow your beliefs" No books that help explain, explore the Golden Rule?
ps. loving this conversation.
pps. The God Delusion anyone?
ppps. Have Parenting Beyond Belief on Audible. Still have to listen to it. Rather excited to see it referenced here.
"In fact, I think that being religious forces us to grapple with life’s difficult questions, while a lot of the athiests on this post seem to just be hoping that they never come up."
I believe its being HUMAN which forces us to grapple with life's difficult questions.
Whether you believe in god or are religious or not, we're all here, and NONE of us are sure where we came from and NONE of us are sure where we're going. It's part of the human condition.
Amen to that.
note that would be the 'amen' that has origins beyond the Christian bible, the Torah, or the Koran.
@Tepary - I was responding to the post in general - not specifically to your comment. I don't believe in god either - I alternate between calling myself agnostic and calling myself atheist depending on the day you ask. :) I don't have anything against teaching your children your beliefs and if you believe in Humanism by all means teach them that!
I do think most humans have the capacity for goodness without a prescription as well. Maybe I wasn't clear but I've known many Christians who believe that a belief in God is the only thing keeping them from evil behavior. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around that idea - that we are bad in the absence of belief.
And yes, of course there are books that explain or explore the Golden Rule - we've read some of them. What I meant was that there are no books that wrap up our family's set of morals and behaviors and explain what happens when you die or where that spark of life came from or why there is evil and injustice in the world or what's out there in the beyond or reassures them that there is some one, some thing out there that is bigger than they are and to whom they can ask for mercy or help in times of sadness or in hard times.
We have a collection of books that address God in an agnostic, God-is-in-all-of-us-and-everything-around-us kind of way, we have books that discuss ethics and behaviors but we don't have books that discuss a belief in "nothing." For me, that's an important distinction - yes, we try to act according to the Golden Rule - but what do we *believe*? I know the question will come - it's been asked of me many times through the years: "well if you aren't Christian or Buddist or X religion then what are you? What *do* you believe?" I can more or less answer that question in 5 or 10 minutes but it's not like saying "I'm a X" and people know (more or less) what beliefs you hold. But I don't expect my daughter of 6 years old to be able to easily answer that so the time will come when a child asks Z what she believes, if not Christianity. I guess you can "believe in" the Golden Rule but it's not exactly a system of beliefs in the same way that a religion is. KWIM?
All of the Humanist books that I've found are for older kids (at the earliest 8-9 years old) and with our daughter the questions started at 3 or 4 years old. (And in any case, I'm not sure I'd actually call myself a Humanist since my belief system - so to speak - places significant emphasis on the care and keeping of the planet and animals. :) ) I've yet to find a single book about atheism for kids. I've read Parenting Beyond Belief and am working my way through Raising Freethinkers but I want a book that sums it up for her. I'm happy to entertain suggestions if you have any! :)
Ya, I usually start with making sure they actually know what the concept we're talking about means. And as it turns out, his definition was a tad... off. Once we had that cleared up, he knew the answer. And my dictionary-style definition sufficed for the 6 yo too, who took in the words, but didn't really get the ramification.
No intelligent people, religious or not, answer big issues with canned answers.
I was just observing what I'd read. Care to back up your claim, or should I just take it on faith? :)
I think your claim is insulting and without any truth to it in the first place, so I can't even begin to see how anyone would counter it.
Thanks Jennifer. You've obviously thought about this a lot and I'm enjoying your response. I understand better now what you were saying. I'm still struggling with how I, how we, use the word belief. Perhaps because it has such a strong connotation with believe in the mystical. Going off to think more about this.
Absolutely. :) I probably think about this stuff too much. It's a problem I have... thinking too much.
I was thinking about the use of the word belief yesterday when I was replying to you. I've not yet come up with any answers but I think you're onto something re: belief & mysticism. Let me know if you figure it out. :)
I am non-religious, hubby is a practicing Catholic, and our oldest son is a kindergartner in Catholic school. I think we are in for all kinds of awkward conversations. For instance, he recently told me that he learned in school that Noah's Ark was real. I kind of stammered that there might have actually been a big flood a long time ago, and an attempt to save some animals, and maybe even Noah, but that it wouldn't have been possible to get two of every animal on a boat.
Hi Annie,
I found this book quite some time ago and will buy it in the near future: "Welterklärung ohne Gott". Maybe also interesting for you? http://www.tologo.de/statt-religioeser-erziehung/
Greetings from Belgium,
Marion
This conversation has stuck with me... and in doing a search today for "secular books for children", I came across this article, which was quite interesting & seems relevant to the conversation! http://newhumanist.org.uk/2087/good-books
Thank you for the recommendation Marion.
[...] Box WordPress PluginThere is an interesting discussion over at PhD in Parenting in a post called Approaching Heaven, Mummies and Infinity about raising kids without religion. As happens to me a fair bit, I began to leave a comment that [...]
I agree that talking about religion, rather than ignoring it, is important. The school curriculum where we live is excellent in that regard. They learn about the history of various belief systems, without being told that one of them is the default or the right one.
Eilat:
The issue of infinity came up in the car one day. Julian asked me why 200 is the biggest number. I said that it isn't the biggest number and that there are a lot of numbers after 200. I said that the biggest number is infinity. We had a long philosophical conversation about it and in the end I suggested he ask Grampa (who was a math major) about it. Grampa told him that infinity isn't a number, it is a concept.