Friday
Oct302009
Are people who don't get the H1N1 vaccine idiots?
Friday, October 30, 2009
Today I read a post by@curiousdad on his blog over at the Vancouver Sun. He wrote H1N1 flu vaccine: What the skeptics aren't telling you. In his post he outlines a case for getting the vaccine and especially for getting your kids vaccinated. His post starts out with:
He goes on to explain a number of reasons for getting the vaccine, to express dismay at the natural parenting community who try to avoid dangerous chemicals in their food and personal use products, but that would be willing to let their children be exposed to H1N1. He ends with his strong disapproval of parents who refused to get their kids vaccinated:
Sounds straight forward right? Perhaps, if you are only listening to certain sources.
My quick response to him turned out to be quite lengthy. It is not as well articulated perhaps as I usually like my posts to be, but since I went to the trouble of writing it I thought I would share it here too:
I am on the fence, but leaning towards getting the H1N1 vaccine for my kids and for myself. However, I think it is smart to:
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but being called an idiot won't bully me into not questioning things.
As the H1N1 vaccine starts to become available across the country, it seems like everywhere I turn there's someone telling me they're not going to get it -- whether it's friends on Facebook, people on the street or even a columnist in my own paper.
When this happens, I try to be polite and not say anything. After all, everyone has the right to make their own decision about whether to get the vaccine or not. And, if polls are to be believed, those forgoing the vaccine have plenty of company.
But what I really want to say -- what would come out of my mouth if I didn't always bite my tongue quick enough -- is this: Are you an idiot?
The evidence in favour of the flu vaccine (much as with routine childhood vaccinations) is so overwhelming and clear that getting the vaccine -- and making sure your children get it -- seems about as clear and straightforward as buckling up before you go for a drive.
He goes on to explain a number of reasons for getting the vaccine, to express dismay at the natural parenting community who try to avoid dangerous chemicals in their food and personal use products, but that would be willing to let their children be exposed to H1N1. He ends with his strong disapproval of parents who refused to get their kids vaccinated:
It's one thing to decide not to get the vaccine yourself. But with evidence mounting that kids are particularly vulnerable to this flu strain, not getting them vaccinated, in my view, borders on negligence -- no different than failing to buckle them up in the car or put a safety gate across your stairs.
Sounds straight forward right? Perhaps, if you are only listening to certain sources.
My reply
My quick response to him turned out to be quite lengthy. It is not as well articulated perhaps as I usually like my posts to be, but since I went to the trouble of writing it I thought I would share it here too:
There are some very well respected doctors and pediatricians that are questioning the safety of the vaccine and the degree of panic around H1N1, including Dr. Jay Gordon and Dr. Bob Sears. Do their opinions count less than your average family doctor in Canada who is pushing the vaccine? Unlike my doctor who shows up at work, does what the Canadian Pediatric Society tells her to do, and maybe does a bit of continuing education here and there, Dr. Gordon and Dr. Sears and others actively analyze and research these issues.
I'm still on the fence about whether to get the vaccine or not. Also, it isn't available yet in my area. Not for priority groups, not for the general population. From that perspective we have both (a) the risk of getting H1N1 because we don't have access to the vaccine and (b) the opportunity to watch and see a bit with regards to any adverse reactions to the vaccine in the areas that have been first to receive the vaccine. The PHAC has promised weekly reports on adverse reactions to the vaccine on fightflu.ca and I am checking each day to see if the first one has been released.
In the meantime, we are taking precautions to try to limit our chances of getting H1N1 and spreading it to others. If we are sick, we stay home. We wash our hands frequently, cough into our sleeves, etc. We are taking significant amounts of Vitamin D. I am taking 5000 IU myself and giving between 1000 IU and 2000 IU per day to the kids. Personally, I feel like taking these types of precautions is likely to be better protection from H1N1 than being put in a crammed enclosed space for 7 hours with a bunch of potentially infected people waiting to get the vaccine. I hope that by the time the vaccine is available in my area they will be taking appointments by phone (like they are in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario) so that people are not exposed to those ridiculous conditions (because the vaccine isn't immediately effective after getting it, so you can get sick waiting in that stupid line).
Finally, there are vaccines out there that have been approved and later removed from the market when it was discovered that they were causing serious adverse effects that went undetected in testing. That is in vaccines that were thoroughly tested, unlike the H1N1 vaccine which has not been properly tested on children, pregnant women, etc. Don't believe me? Look up rota virus, which in the United States annually sickens about 2.7 million children younger than five, sends up to 70,000 to the hospital and causes 20 to 70 deaths. One vaccine was pulled from the market in 1999 and another one later introduced has significant concerns/adverse effects. My son was hospitalized for rota virus. It sucked. It was scary. But I'm glad he didn't have the vaccine.
I am on the fence, but leaning towards getting the H1N1 vaccine for my kids and for myself. However, I think it is smart to:
- ask questions about vaccine safety
- to insist on seeing the weekly reports on adverse affects that the Canadian government promised but that have not materialized yet (especially in the absence of real safety tests )
- to do more to protect yourself than getting into a panicked frenzy about vaccine availability
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but being called an idiot won't bully me into not questioning things.
Reader Comments (126)
I too paid $30 for the flu shot (probably much less once my health insurance kicks in).
And I also take offense to your comment. Can you tell that to my daughter who has a genetic condition that has nothing to do with "prepackaged food"? Since every time she gets the normal flu, she ends up in the hospital a week. I'd be an idiot not to vaccinate the kid. If you disagree, feel free to join me at the Children's Hospital the next time she gets sick. I don't mind the company.
Actually most likely when they are contagious, they aren't showing any signs from what I've been told.
For anyone who has or has had H1N1 (either confirmed or suspected), I'm conducting a survey and would love your help by filling it out. It only takes a couple minutes. Please fill out a new survey for each person who had the illness. Thank you!
H1N1 Survey: http://bit.ly/1Q5QA
I'm by no means pushing the shot, but for anyone who is still sitting on the fence re: getting the H1N1 shot, I'd recommend checking out this really easy to read presentation about the risks vs. benefits. Quite possibly the simplest, most matter of fact info on H1N1 and the vaccine I've found... and I've done a lot of searching.
http://www.stmichaelshospital.com/h1n1/H1N1-decision-aid.pdf
Okay, was that decision aid supposed to be unbiased? Why does it say at the end, "Will you vaccinate yourself and your kids? Yes." That was nice that it makes the decision for you. Hmmm...
It says, "In a perfect world we would have large trials over years to reassure you (and me) that the vaccine is perfectly safe. However, if we waited for this, millions of people would get very sick. The H1N1 vaccine is like a new version of the flu shot that we have lots of experience with and an excellent safety record. As well, there is now enhanced reporting systems in North America to gather this data and there have been no concerning signals. The adjuvant is new to this influenza shot and has been less tested on pregnant moms and children under 6 months so we are cautious with these two groups. Ultimately you and I have to make a decision without all the data we would like."
Maybe that is fine with others. Yet, the scientists who published the studies I cited above would disagree that it is completely "safe." There are some issues with this vaccine that deserve further attention. And there is no long term safety data. There isn't even much efficacy data with this particular vaccine being rolled out right now, just a similar product they used during the trials.
If people want to get vaccinated, that is their business and they're free to do so. But I take exception to any concerns being downplayed. If scientists are questioning it, that's a red flag for me. If I have valid concerns for myself and my family with the safety and efficacy of this product, they should not be downplayed by a decision aid that tells me at the end that I should just get vaccinated and that I should do it for others too (no thanks, they can get their own vaccine if they'd like).
My friends in Canada all just recovered uneventfully from H1N1...that includes a 5 year old and 3 year old. Not to say that it is not serious for some people. But it also not remarkable for many as well.
I agree that the presentation was still biased. I liked the presentation, up to the last slide, because it provided a simple and clear discussion of the main issues/concerns. I feel that it answers a lot of questions for those who are questioning things on a more basic level - most people I've spoken to are afraid they'll die or have serious complications if they get H1N1 - the presentation cites evidence that says H1N1 is pretty mild and though it's unpleasant, they will cope (I too know many people who have recovered uneventfully from H1N1 - most people do). Others are afraid of the possibility of serious complications from the vaccine - the presentation indicates that the data we have now suggests that serious complications will be rare. I provided the link to share information, not to downplay anyone's concerns. I too have concerns about vaccinations, particularly the long term effects of vacinations in general, especially the cumulative effect of all the new vaccines being pushed. And I don't think anyone should accept anything without questioning. Unfortunately, a lot of the scientific information is not accessible to everyone, so a simplified decision aid may help (though I really wish that last slide wasn't in there).
I also resent the "protect other people by getting vaccinated" argument, but unfortunately in my case it is a reality - I work with children, many of whom are medically fragile and cannot get their own vaccine. In my case, I do feel a responsiblity to get the vaccine to protect the kids I work with from getting an illness that they may not be able to cope with.
Just as an aside, ultimately, I think the government pushing the vaccine is an attempt at cost savings - it's cheaper to vaccinate hundreds of thousands of people than it is to hospitalize those who do end up with serious complications... especially when those hospitals are likely to be short staffed due to the same illness.
[...] I cruised over to PhD in Parenting and found the post asking if parents who don’t get their children vaccinated are idiots. It was based on an exchange she had with Chad Skelton, who writes the Curious Dad blog at The [...]
Yes, I agree with you that is it is a good starting point to look at some of the issues. Unfortunately, many people are not as well read and thorough as you appear to be and for many folks, a slide show presentation is as much investigation as they will do. I have met some mothers who have brought their kids in for vaccinations but have no idea what they were given or why.
And the protection of others argument might sit better with me if it hadn't been overused by health officials before with vaccines that do not tend to provide "herd immunity" ie. adult pertussis boosters to supposedly protect children, yet I can cite published studies showing the failure of the pertussis vaccine to prevent infection or transmission in fully vaxed on schedule children. Maybe if there were studies on the Arepanrix to back up their claims...but again, they say there's no time to provide this. Vaccinate first, worry about efficacy and long term safety later.
Good point about the cost savings. It's the same with the Hep B shot...the logic for many jurisdictions being that it is cheaper to administer the vaccine to newborns than to test all the mothers. Also, the government had a contract with GSK to produce all these millions of doses, so it's been bought and paid for by tax dollars already. The government needs to get it out there or else it's going to be sitting around and won't the opposition love to flog that around the House if they find out millions of $$ were wasted and doses were not used...it's a business deal as well after all.
PHAC has amended its FAQs on vaccine safety (linked at the bottom of the post). Until last Friday it included a sentence that said: "PHAC will be preparing a weekly report on Fightflu.ca that provides a summary of the adverse events reported nationwide". That sentence (and some related information that I did not copy verbatim anywhere) has now been removed. So much for transparency.
An anaylst suggested on Halifax CBC radio yesterday that some mechanism for tracking reactions to the vaccine, even minor ones, would be good for future research. No such luck.. My 13yo with asthma was vaccinated this week. He had a very, very sore and swollen arm, low fever, cough and fatigue. Others have reported vomiting. I'm surprised there isn't interest in gathering this sort of information...
I read the last question as being asked of the speaker, and his/her answer for their own family, not a presumed question/answer on behalf of the reader.
Here is a summary report put out by the Australian government on H1N1 here:
http://www.healthemergency.gov.au/internet/healthemergency/publishing.nsf/Content/ozflu2009.htm/$File/ozflu-no26-2009.pdf
It's interesting reading. Note in the chart on page 3 (Figure 1) that reported cases were almost back to baseline before the vaccine was introduced.
Also, the stats on page 9 show that for Australia, it did not cause significant mortality in young people. Yes, the age of infection was low, but the average age of mortality was 54 years.
The Government of Canada finally released its report on adverse reactions to the H1N1 vaccine. Out of 6.6 million doses distributed (not sure how many administered of those), there were 634 adverse effects, 36 serious adverse effects, and one fatal case of anaphylaxis.
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte/h1n1/vacc/addeve-eng.php
[...] wrote previously about balancing the pros and cons of the H1N1 vaccine in making the best decision for your family. We decided to get vaccinated. However, I still think [...]
I would not call anyone an idiot, but I would call them ignorant. As I was reading some posts on here, so many feel that the flu is not actually dangerous. I have had the flu once in my life, and at the time my resistance was down, it knocked me out for over a week. Obviously, I did not die, I was a healthy adult at the time, however, very VERY ILL. Flu kills healthy people as well, and the swine flu is killing healthy children AND adults. I did not hesitate for a moment to get the H1N1 vaccine for my child and I also received it ( as I now have a chronic medical condition). I really hope that those who choose not to vaccinate do not regret it later on.
One more thing, I had NO side effects from the H1N1 vaccine and neither did my 12 yr old daughter. Absolutely NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you claim you had fever, or flu like symptoms after receiving the vaccine, most likely you had already been exposed to an illness (virus) and your symptoms had nothing to do with the actual vaccine. Vaccines actually take a full 2 weeks to give you immunity.
To Courtney above, sorry your child has autism, but it has already been proven that autism has nothing to do with immunizations. Please read up on latest findings, there is a genetic link to that
Also, it is your choice not to give your child the gardisal vaccine ( which has already been proven to be safe) but I chose it for my 12 yr old because even though I will teach her about safe sex, all the preaching in the world will not protect her from the evils of the world, as I most certainly learned over 20 years ago when I was sexually assaulted and picked up the deadly HPV virus because of that horrible night. How thrilled I am to know my baby can be protected from that.
Susan: I'm glad that everything worked out for you. Aren't you glad that we live in a society where people have freedom of choice? You can choose what's right for your family. Others can choose otherwise.
Health Canada is posting adverse reactions, so I guess you can take that up with them. Most neurological reactions would be based on the adjuvants not the virus, so they wouldn't be based on seroconversion rates of the vaccine.
Gardasil is a whole other subject. Based on the clinical trial results and the FUTURES II study, I would never allow my daughter to get it. Sure, it's effective against those strains covered, but other HPV strains then fill the void, so net gain is negligible. But I guess they can keep adding more and more strains to the vaccine...
H1N1 is a scam, its a scam designed to scare American people into getting a vaccine, because if they do that, the Big Pharma industry makes some serious bank, think about it $25 x how many people, looks like people in Big Pharma got some nice christmas gifts for their kids........if you get it, you're nothing more than a piece of a paycheck for those people......and listen, the only time i ever get the flu is when i get the flu shot..........interesting huh? I say, don't get the flu shot, but if you wanna listen to people who are trying to make money off of you, go for it.
Um, those who "properly" take care of their bodies with the right nutrition will never and I repeat NEVER EVER suffer chronic illness.
For some ideas about living healthy till 100 and over read "Healthy at 100" John Robbins.
And by the way... you will not find info on proper care of your body on television. Well.. maybe only the exercise part of the show called The Biggest Loser. All nutrition advice on TV is WRONG. Fat Free eating? WRONG! Low Carbs? WRONG!
Read Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon. You will never see the world the same way again. And your health will be better for it too. Need proof? Me and my family as well as thousands of other who have been sick and are now enjoying great health by going back to the basics of traditional eating of natural foods. You see we are NOT scientific proof because we are regular people who do things that don't make big pharma any money. (most scientific research is funded by big corporations to make them money) As a matter of fact, if I told you I became cancer free from eating certain foods, I will probably go to jail... thanks to FDA whose top heads are sleeping around with big pharma. Need proof for that too? Research the job histories of all top heads of FDA officials and big pharma whores.
Thanks for your time.
That depends on the vaccine. Different vaccines work with different parts of the immune system, based on what people who develop those vaccines have determined is the best way to prevent those illnesses.
"Um, those who “properly” take care of their bodies with the right nutrition will never and I repeat NEVER EVER suffer chronic illness."
Alright, now is time for being blunt:
That is a RIDICULOUSLY ableist thing to say.
Not just ableist. Ridiculously ableist. And ridiculously incorrect, as well.
I will NOT be getting H1N1 vaccines because in every multi dose shot is 25mcg of thimersoal mercury. FAR to much chemical for my child, End of discussion. When I was pregnant 5 doctors told me NOT to eat fish because it contains to much mercury these days and can possibly damage the baby. If it's to much just in some occasional fish, then it darn well to much in a vaccine as well! But they are coercing pregnant women every where to get this thing? NOWAY! The nasal spray does not have mercury but it makes you contagious.
to all those people asking "What are we scared of?" well exactly what is happening in Australia surrounding our flu shots....one child is dead and many many more have been hospitalised from the combined h1n1 and seasonal flu vaccine. How? They don't know....to me that is evidence that testing is not to a high standard. But anyway I can't help but be smug (of course feeling immense sympathy for the parents of children that did had side effects) as I had recently had a argument with a close friend as to why I don't want to get my son vacc (And just cos it is free...doesn't win an argument for me).
http://www.news.com.au/national/flu-jab-fears-grow-as-toddlers-rushed-to-hospital/story-e6frfkw0-1225857716233
Love this: "I do not understand his reference to “natural parents” not wanting to put chemicals in their food but allowing their kids to get the virus. Our personal beliefs are that illnesses are natural and an important part of evolution. Now our bodies are more up to date with the viruses of the world we are better off, imo. To me that is natural. Putting a manmade vax into our bodies because we are afraid does not feel safe to me."
Obviously this is kind of an old issue by now but I especially wanted to point out how right you were about not knowing how real the threat was. For all of the HUGE panic, it didn't end up being worse than a regular flu and only the people I know who get some form of the flu EVERY YEAR ended up sick. That guy's argument was TOTALLY laughable.
Excellent post, it opend my eyes, thanks!
[...] started making it available and how long it takes to truly provide protection). But I’ve read so many posts on the topic recently, trying to make sure if I was making the right choice, it’s [...]