Friday
Oct302009
Are people who don't get the H1N1 vaccine idiots?
Friday, October 30, 2009
Today I read a post by@curiousdad on his blog over at the Vancouver Sun. He wrote H1N1 flu vaccine: What the skeptics aren't telling you. In his post he outlines a case for getting the vaccine and especially for getting your kids vaccinated. His post starts out with:
He goes on to explain a number of reasons for getting the vaccine, to express dismay at the natural parenting community who try to avoid dangerous chemicals in their food and personal use products, but that would be willing to let their children be exposed to H1N1. He ends with his strong disapproval of parents who refused to get their kids vaccinated:
Sounds straight forward right? Perhaps, if you are only listening to certain sources.
My quick response to him turned out to be quite lengthy. It is not as well articulated perhaps as I usually like my posts to be, but since I went to the trouble of writing it I thought I would share it here too:
I am on the fence, but leaning towards getting the H1N1 vaccine for my kids and for myself. However, I think it is smart to:
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but being called an idiot won't bully me into not questioning things.
As the H1N1 vaccine starts to become available across the country, it seems like everywhere I turn there's someone telling me they're not going to get it -- whether it's friends on Facebook, people on the street or even a columnist in my own paper.
When this happens, I try to be polite and not say anything. After all, everyone has the right to make their own decision about whether to get the vaccine or not. And, if polls are to be believed, those forgoing the vaccine have plenty of company.
But what I really want to say -- what would come out of my mouth if I didn't always bite my tongue quick enough -- is this: Are you an idiot?
The evidence in favour of the flu vaccine (much as with routine childhood vaccinations) is so overwhelming and clear that getting the vaccine -- and making sure your children get it -- seems about as clear and straightforward as buckling up before you go for a drive.
He goes on to explain a number of reasons for getting the vaccine, to express dismay at the natural parenting community who try to avoid dangerous chemicals in their food and personal use products, but that would be willing to let their children be exposed to H1N1. He ends with his strong disapproval of parents who refused to get their kids vaccinated:
It's one thing to decide not to get the vaccine yourself. But with evidence mounting that kids are particularly vulnerable to this flu strain, not getting them vaccinated, in my view, borders on negligence -- no different than failing to buckle them up in the car or put a safety gate across your stairs.
Sounds straight forward right? Perhaps, if you are only listening to certain sources.
My reply
My quick response to him turned out to be quite lengthy. It is not as well articulated perhaps as I usually like my posts to be, but since I went to the trouble of writing it I thought I would share it here too:
There are some very well respected doctors and pediatricians that are questioning the safety of the vaccine and the degree of panic around H1N1, including Dr. Jay Gordon and Dr. Bob Sears. Do their opinions count less than your average family doctor in Canada who is pushing the vaccine? Unlike my doctor who shows up at work, does what the Canadian Pediatric Society tells her to do, and maybe does a bit of continuing education here and there, Dr. Gordon and Dr. Sears and others actively analyze and research these issues.
I'm still on the fence about whether to get the vaccine or not. Also, it isn't available yet in my area. Not for priority groups, not for the general population. From that perspective we have both (a) the risk of getting H1N1 because we don't have access to the vaccine and (b) the opportunity to watch and see a bit with regards to any adverse reactions to the vaccine in the areas that have been first to receive the vaccine. The PHAC has promised weekly reports on adverse reactions to the vaccine on fightflu.ca and I am checking each day to see if the first one has been released.
In the meantime, we are taking precautions to try to limit our chances of getting H1N1 and spreading it to others. If we are sick, we stay home. We wash our hands frequently, cough into our sleeves, etc. We are taking significant amounts of Vitamin D. I am taking 5000 IU myself and giving between 1000 IU and 2000 IU per day to the kids. Personally, I feel like taking these types of precautions is likely to be better protection from H1N1 than being put in a crammed enclosed space for 7 hours with a bunch of potentially infected people waiting to get the vaccine. I hope that by the time the vaccine is available in my area they will be taking appointments by phone (like they are in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario) so that people are not exposed to those ridiculous conditions (because the vaccine isn't immediately effective after getting it, so you can get sick waiting in that stupid line).
Finally, there are vaccines out there that have been approved and later removed from the market when it was discovered that they were causing serious adverse effects that went undetected in testing. That is in vaccines that were thoroughly tested, unlike the H1N1 vaccine which has not been properly tested on children, pregnant women, etc. Don't believe me? Look up rota virus, which in the United States annually sickens about 2.7 million children younger than five, sends up to 70,000 to the hospital and causes 20 to 70 deaths. One vaccine was pulled from the market in 1999 and another one later introduced has significant concerns/adverse effects. My son was hospitalized for rota virus. It sucked. It was scary. But I'm glad he didn't have the vaccine.
I am on the fence, but leaning towards getting the H1N1 vaccine for my kids and for myself. However, I think it is smart to:
- ask questions about vaccine safety
- to insist on seeing the weekly reports on adverse affects that the Canadian government promised but that have not materialized yet (especially in the absence of real safety tests )
- to do more to protect yourself than getting into a panicked frenzy about vaccine availability
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but being called an idiot won't bully me into not questioning things.
Reader Comments (126)
I also wondered about the safety of this new vaccine -- not because of an inherent distrust of the medical establishment and not because I buy into any conspiracy theories, but because it is new and there was a lot of rhetoric being thrown around.
Here is my detailed response to questions that many people have: http://playgroundconfidential.com/2009/10/30/5000-reasons-and-counting-to-get-your-h1n1-vaccine/
I have become convinced that this vaccine is safe (much safer than the H1N1 flu, that's for sure) and I think we should all get it. Having said that, there is no need for full scale panic and waiting in crowded lines for hours on end with two small children? Yeah, that's not going to happen. So I will wait until more clinics in Toronto open and conditions are a lot more tolerable (or see if I can get it at the doctor's office).
@ebbandflo They were reports on deaths that are linked to the vaccine. There are also plenty of headlines claiming that people died from swine flu just because they happened to have swine flu and also happened to die. Most of them have some underlying condition and many of them could very well have died with or without the swine flu.
A comment that I read somewhere that made a lot of sense and that I tweeted about was this:
- When someone with an underlying condition and swine flu dies, they died of swine flu
- When someone with an underlying condition who got the H1N1 vaccine dies, they died of their underlying condition
Oh and don't worry too much about the kettle and I...we both enjoy a good bun fight (this is not the first time we've had one) and it certainly gets people thinking and talking, which is all I would ask.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Vaccines actually give us natural immunity to disease. By exposing us to just a little bit (not enough to make us sick) the vaccine triggers our immune system to start making antibodies for that illness. Then, if and when we are exposed to it, our bodies already have the ammunition to fight it.
Antibiotics, on the other hand, just kill the bacteria which then becomes resistant. Viruses don't become resistant to vaccinated people. Flu strains do change from year to year but that has nothing to do with vaccines -- they've been doing that forever.
(For the record, I don't usually get the seasonal flu shot, either, just because I am healthy and have never been seriously ill from the flu. But I might reconsider now that I see the death rates. Yikes.)
I understand how vaccines work. But I don't agree with using them for illnesses like the flu - even the swine flu, except in certain cases. The flu as an illness isn't serious enough to warrant a vaccine. It's better for our bodies to develop its own immunity through exposure to various viruses over time. These are Dr. Gordon's words (http://drjaygordon.com/development/news/swinefluhighanxiety.asp):
"Every winter there are dozens and dozens of different viruses. The immune system is built by catching and beating these bugs and acquiring antibodies and "memory cells" for the next time the virus appears.
There is no way around this process and no shortcut. Children, in particular, must suffer through a lot of winter illnesses because their immune systems are so inexperienced."
Regarding death rates from swine flu, I'm not sure you can even get accurate death rates since the way the media is reporting this is leaving out important contextual information. Even the CDC hasn't done a good job of tracking H1N1. How do we know for sure that someone has died of H1N1 when they say it? In my own town, headlines declared a 13-year-old dead from swine flu and then buried a note in the bottom of the article that said it wasn't yet confirmed. There has been no follow-up. If it was a confirmed swine flu death, I know there would have been. The sad thing is that teen's death wouldn't have been reported at all a year ago. Now, whether it's swine flu or not, this death is being exploited and causing fear and panic in the community.
Actually, vaccines give unnatural immunity. They enter our bodies in a way no natural disease can, they activate a completely different aspect of the immune system because of their entry route, a part which was never meant to be a primary system. The virus is injected with many chemicals, all of which are toxic to humans. Some of these are preservatives and some are adjuvants (which they don't work without). The adjuvants hyper stimulate the immune system to respond to the virus in order to create the immune response & anti-bodies. These anti-bodies are clearly different than ones created from actually getting the disease, since vaccine induced immunities aren't passed through breast milk the way natural immunity is. You might also want to research into serotype replacement.
The number of pregnant women getting this shot worries me, given the insert for this recommends against pregnant women getting it & the WHO now suggests not giving it to kids under 10.
Do you have a link to the information you are citing about WHO not recommending this for kids under 10?
Lisa: I would also be interested in the reference re: WHO recommending not giving it to kids under 10. I had seen an update from the WHO that said that kids probably only need one shot (instead of 2 as initially stated), but I hadn't seen anything about it not being recommended for kids.
@toyfoto
I'd like to clarify that Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) is NOT an actual side-effect of flu shots. GBS is an autoimmune disorder triggered by some kind of infectious process. In many cases the precise trigger is unknown. The most common trigger is a bacterial infection. A few studies suggest that influenza might be the trigger in some cases. The 1976 influenza vaccine has been linked to cases of GBS in that year, although flu vaccines since then have not been shown to have a causal relationship. However, all types of flu shots today carry the warning about GBS.
Marianne is right. I'm sorry I was unclear.
Wow, a post about a vaccine that doesn't resort to any name calling! This is truly impressive. We're also pretty middle of the road on these issues, and we also find that finding the tiny grain of truth among all the scare tactics on both sides of the vaccine debate is very difficult.
As any woman in early pregnancy would be, I'm pretty worried about h1n1, but also not eager to be a guinea pig for an untested (in pregnant women) vaccine. If I do get it, it will probably be in a few months after there is some data available on it. But probably my husband and son will get it, to protect themselves and reduce my exposure to the disease.
I agree 100% with your comments! I am not anti-vaccine, and even though my 3 year old has autism, my 1 year old has gotten his vaccines... albeit delayed and will not get his a flu shot this year, nor his MMR until he is 2. It hasn't been proven that these vaccines, or the most targed possible autism trigger, thimeroral which was/is present in MMR and flu vaccines, but I am not risking it as my children may be genetically predisposed to vaccine injury. But due to a lack of research either way, I am not taking chances.
My daughter was of age when the gardasil vaccine was released, but she did not receive it at that point for the same reasons you state.
Great post!!
ugggh! I'm so SICK of being called a "conspiracy theorist" and "idiot" because I don't want to get my 3.5 year old vaccinated with this. I don't make fun of people for GETTING their family vaccinated - and I'm appalled at the lack of mutual respect in return. I have finally just decided not to TELL anyone - and if they ask I'm telling them it's a personal decision and I don't want to talk about it...
While the rotavirus vaccine was pulled from the market in 1999, a vaccine approved by the FDA in 2006 (RotaTeq) and also another vaccine (Rotarix) do not cause intussusception and have been incredibly successful. With this vaccine, children no longer need to suffer from a rotavirus.
The more people that are vaccinated, the more safe everyone is because of herd immunity.
Please read:
http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20081027/rotavirus-vaccine-a-success-story?page=2
The H1N1 vaccine is prepared in the same way the seasonal flu vaccine was. If it had hit a few months earlier, it would have just been made part of the seasonal flu vaccine. Please read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/opinion/12offit.html
"The experts noted that a variety of pandemic vaccines, including live attenuated and both adjuvanted and non-adjuvanted inactivated vaccines, have now been licensed for use by regulatory authorities. SAGE recommended the use of a single dose of vaccine in adults and adolescents, beginning at the age of 10 years, provided such use is consistent with indications from regulatory authorities.
Data on immunogenicity in children older than 6 months and younger than 10 years are limited and more studies are needed. Where national authorities have made children a priority for early vaccination, SAGE recommended that priority be given to the administration of one dose of vaccine to as many children as possible. SAGE further stressed the need for studies to determine dosage regimens effective in immunocompromised persons."
So I guess it's more they don't know if it works in under 10's, but if the gov't wants them to have it anyway, only give 1 dose. It's from http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/briefing_20091030/en/index.html
@MZ:
I'm glad that you asked me that because it made me go look up the information. The unfortunate thing about looking it up is that I'm now seriously questioning the integrity and transparency of the Canadian government on issue relating to the vaccine.
From the Canadian government on its http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte/h1n1/faq_rg_h1n1-eng.php#vac" rel="nofollow">H1N1 Flu Vaccine FAQs:
From http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090923/seasonal_flu_090923/20090923?hub=Health" rel="nofollow">CTV news, citing Dr. Donald Low, an infectious diseases expert at Toronto's Mount Sinai Hospital:
So the study is still being reviewed and the evidence is unconfirmed. But I'm annoyed that the Canadian government couldn't say that instead of denying completely that such a study/finding even exists.
Yes, I think your government should have just said that they don't know the answer. LOTS of research studies get denied for publication and that could very well be the case for this study. I mean, there are all sorts of factors that could explain the result they got that don't have to do with the vaccine itself. For instance, maybe those who got the flu vaccine last year are more cavalier about health-maintenance behaviors (like washing hands), thinking they are protected from getting sick at all because they had the vaccine. Or maybe the study sample size was so small that it's possible the bulk of the sample received the vaccine last year because they are more susceptible to getting sick (have compromised immune systems, work somewhere where there is a greater chance of being exposed to viruses, like around kids).
So, I guess I can see why the government said what they did, so that people wouldn't panic if there is a high rate this study won't even make it to be published (I don't know the stats on how many get published, because that depends on the journal, the researcher, the subject, etc.). But, I agree with you, they should have been more upfront because if this study does pass muster then the government will have misinformed everyone.
I feel like the best way to inform ourselves is to cut out the middle man and try to read the studies straight for ourselves, like you are working to do.
My understanding of that release is not that one shot is sufficient for children under 10, but, if there is a shortage of vaccine, give one shot to children so as to give at least partial protection.
@radmama: The latest findings from the WHO is that one shot may be enough for children.
With all due respect, that's not the way I read the October 30 bulletin. I interpret the text below as saying 1 shot will provide immunity for 10 and up, more study is needed for those under 10, but in the interest of getting limited vaccine to more people, 1 dose should be administered.
"Single dose recommended
The experts noted that a variety of pandemic vaccines, including live attenuated and both adjuvanted and non-adjuvanted inactivated vaccines, have now been licensed for use by regulatory authorities. SAGE recommended the use of a single dose of vaccine in adults and adolescents, beginning at the age of 10 years, provided such use is consistent with indications from regulatory authorities.
Data on immunogenicity in children older than 6 months and younger than 10 years are limited and more studies are needed. Where national authorities have made children a priority for early vaccination, SAGE recommended that priority be given to the administration of one dose of vaccine to as many children as possible."
There are good data suggesting that keeping your vitamin D level optimal will prevent colds, flu and in particular H1N1 (swine Flu). The Canadians are taking the data very seriously and starting studies to see if Vitamin D can prevent Flu
Here are links to two interesting articles:
August 2009-Vitamin D3 deficiency and its role in influenza
http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs026/1102452079631/archive/1102685428884.html
Sept 2009-More on Vitamin D3 and influenza
http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs026/1102452079631/archive/1102728693089.html
If these links don’t work you can go to www.vitaminD3world.com and click on ‘In the news” to find the articles.
@radmama: Sorry - I'm getting my sources/stories confused. It was tests by the vaccine manufacturer, GlaxoSmithKline that showed that one dose is probably enough for children:
http://www.nationalpost.com/life/health/story.html?id=0aa82851-0de3-409c-971a-cf6967a36f2b
I was very on the fence about getting either vaccine for myself (pregnant) and my 15 month old. On the one hand, she isn't in daycare and has limited exposure to other kids in close quarters, plus we do lots of hand-washing, etc around here. Also, at her last ped appointment, neither vaccine was available (seasonal shot ran out, H1N1 not released yet).
On the other hand, my friend had the swine flu and the symptoms she described sound way worse than a regular flu, and it is swaying me in the direction of getting the vaccine for myself, and for my daughter.
In any case, the argument is moot at this point in time, since neither is available to us at this moment in time.
I recently posted this note at David Gorski's site. It's a website filled with some fine scientists but, unfortunately, some of the rudest bloggers on the Internet.
_________________________________________________________________________
Congratulations on your huge increase in views and viewers, David!!!!!
I do love Craig's wording when he calls you "anti-safe vaccine."
I like to use the same wording when I discuss a woman's right to choose: I am pro-choice and those who disagree with me are anti-choice.
By the way, I do not think that my experience is more important than published studies. I am, however, very certain that discarding this experience and observation is unscientific.
I am afraid that Craig's got a point: You and many here seem quite vociferously opposed to even thinking about making our vaccines safer. Instead you insist on carelessly labeling those of us who think there's a little room for improvement (let alone a lot of room!) "anti-vaccine" Nothing could be further from the truth and you persist in using this inaccurate epithet where it doesn't apply.
There are people opposed to all vaccines. I'm not one of them and many of those offering their opinions here are neither in favor of all vaccines nor opposed to them.
Maybe there are three camps: pro-safer vaccines, anti-safer vaccines and anti-vaccines.
Again, here's to the next 5,000,000 views. For better or worse, you deserve them.
Best,
Jay
I am a mother of two and we do not vaccinate. We are not firmly anti-vaccine, but have made our decision based on our own family's personal risk-benefit analysis and for us, that precludes vaccines at this time.
I have been watching the H1N1 panic, for lack of a better word, from overseas in Australia, where we just got through winter with both H1N1 and seasonal flu circulating and NO H1N1 vaccine--it just reached the public at the end of September (spring). As of October 26/09, there were a total of 186 confirmed H1N1 deaths in a country of almost 22 million people.
My family reside in Canada. I pulled up the product insert for Arepanrix:
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/prodpharma/legislation/interimorders-arretesurgence/prodinfo-vaccin-eng.php
"Health Canada has authorized the sale of Arepanrix™ H1N1 based on limited clinical testing in humans under the provision of an Interim Order (IO) issued on October 13, 2009...There is currently limited clinical experience with Arepanrix™ H1N1, and limited clinical experience with an investigational formulation of another AS03-adjuvanted vaccine containing the same or a slightly higher amount of antigen derived from A/California/7/2009 (H1N1) (see section Pharmacodynamics) in healthy adults aged 18-60 years and no clinical experience yet in the elderly, in children or in adolescents...There is very limited experience with AS03-adjuvanted H5N1 vaccine in children between 3 and 9 years of age, and no experience in children less than 3 years of age or in children and adolescents between 10 and 17 years of age...No data have been generated in pregnant women with Arepanrix™ H1N1 nor with the prototype AS03 adjuvanted H5N1 vaccine."
Now to me, "limited experience," "no experience," and "no data" does not sound like rigorous testing.
I have been reading the media reports of middle aged adults/seniors in Sweden who died within hours or days of their Pandemrix vaccinations. One was a man in his 50s with severe heart disease who died within 12 hours of his vaccination. (I have the link to the Swedish newspaper article...if anyone wants it and can read Swedish, ask and I'll post it).
So, then I came across this:
Possible hidden hazards of mass vaccination against new influenza A/H1N1: have the cardiovascular risks been adequately weighed?
Sucharit Bhakdi et al Medical Microbiology and Immunology
Vol.198, No.4, November 2009 pages 205-209
http://www.springerlink.com/content/26r335851h17584g/?p=1c07b2f1a9a446b2819ce0a915ca1f40&pi=0
"Evidence from animal experiments in conjunction with clinical epidemiological data indicates that, quite irrespective of cause, stimulation of the immune system may accelerate atherogenesis. Application of adjuvanted flu vaccines to individuals at risk may therefore aggravate the course of underlying atherosclerotic vessel disease with all the clinical consequences...Safety trials conducted to date have not specifically taken these possible side effects into account, and unexpected serious adverse effects thus may follow in the wake of a general vaccination program. A prudent consequence would be to establish careful survey systems alongside with mass application of new adjuvanted vaccines, or to hold mass vaccination in reserve for use only in situations of true need, such as would arise with the emergence of a more virulent new H1N1 virus strain, or to use non-adjuvanted vaccines in individuals who are potentially at risk for adverse side effects."
And then there's Dr. Chris Shaw's recently published research on the effects of aluminum hydroxide (a vaccine adjuvant) and the brain:
Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration
Dr. Christopher A. Shaw
Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry
Volume 103, Issue 11, November 2009, Pages 1555-1562
The Eighth Keele Meeting on Aluminium
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TGG-4X1YCBB-1&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=fb173cc4103b412cac4a1581544825cc
"... In an initial series of experiments, we examined the potential toxicity of aluminum hydroxide in male, outbred CD-1 mice injected subcutaneously in two equivalent-to-human doses. After sacrifice, spinal cord and motor cortex samples were examined by immunohistochemistry. Aluminum-treated mice showed significantly increased apoptosis of motor neurons and increases in reactive astrocytes and microglial proliferation within the spinal cord and cortex. Morin stain detected the presence of aluminum in the cytoplasm of motor neurons with some neurons also testing positive for the presence of hyper-phosphorylated tau protein, a pathological hallmark of various neurological diseases, including Alzheimer’s disease and frontotemporal dementia. A second series of experiments was conducted on mice injected with six doses of aluminum hydroxide. Behavioural analyses in these mice revealed significant impairments in a number of motor functions as well as diminished spatial memory capacity. The demonstrated neurotoxicity of aluminum hydroxide and its relative ubiquity as an adjuvant suggest that greater scrutiny by the scientific community is warranted."
Although I am skeptical of many aspects of the current vaccine program in general, I think that there are too many unanswered questions about the safety and efficacy of these H1N1 vaccines. Plus the media-influenced anxiety is fuelling a rush towards quick vaccination despite some of these warning signs (like the papers I posted above). In the city where my family lives, many low-risk people waited for 6 hours to receive a H1N1 vaccine, even though they aren't even at high risk of complications (according to government health authorities). People need to calm down and rationally look at all the information...more is emerging daily.
And simply calling people "idiots" for choosing to make their own rational, researched, science-based decisions for themselves and their families...well, that doesn't show a lot of maturity or intelligence...whatever "side" you're on.
Still looks like a might, but I'm hoping more conclusive data will be available by the time i need to make my decision on Nov 16. In-Canada trials are going on now, including at the Halifax children's hospital, and I have heard preliminary results will be available in another week or two.
Great post! My own Pediatrician and OB recommended the H1N1 vaccine. Our pediatrician is not for the flu shot at all but this is the first year he thinks it is necessary. I am pregnant and have a very weak immune system while pregnant. So I did go get it after much thought and research. I did not get it for my kids. 2 of my girls already had the flu. The other 2 did not. My girls are generally healthy. I do believe it is a personal opinion and we shouldn't criticize others for whatever path they choose. We don't know what's going to happen. We are playing Russian Roulette. You don't know if the shot is going to do something to you and you don't know if the flu is. You have to choose what YOU can live with.
I am another one who is not anti-vaccine, but I delay-vaccinated my daughter, because I feel that the AAP's guidelines are too much too soon. I believe that such a tiny body with a developing brain should not be given up to six shots at one time. She did receive the seasonal flu mist and is supposed to get a 2nd does, but since there is no more available in the area - I don't understand how she would get it? Which brings up another subject whether they are protected or not with just one does or need two (under 10) - if they REALLY do need another - why doesn't the Dr put the 2nd shot/mist aside for the child? As for the H1N1, I am another on the fence - I think if the shot/mist was more easily accessible (there are clinics in my area, w/ either long lines or they run out of shots in less than an hour -US), I just might get the mist or shot for her - only if it is a single does, not multi. In the meantime, we are nursing, taking about 2000 IU VItamin D and probiotics.
Until yesterday, I had firmly decided that my 9 month old daughter and I were not going to get the vaccine. I didn't feel it had been tested enough in the demographics that they're trying to force it on. Also, because I'm on maternity leave still, we're at home alot. We don't spend alot of time out of the house, and when we do it's usually at one of the grandparent's houses. In that respect I think our exposure to H1N1 is somewhat limited.
But yesterday I learned that the vaccines are the exact same as a seasonal flu shot, just with a different strain of flu in it. (Obviously I don't follow every last bit of news on this issue.) That being the case, what are we scared of? What will more rigorous testing prove? And what results are we expecting to see when the adverse reaction reports start coming in? Technically, wouldn't the adverse reactions be the same as with seasonal flu shots? The only thing I could see being called into question, is how much of the live strain is there - is it too little to kickstart out antibodies, is it too much and causing full blown H1N1 illness?
Not that it matters much at the moment - the mass vaccination in my province has been halted because they're running out of vaccines. The pharm company is apparently spending the next 3 weeks focusing on the non-adjuvant version for pregnant women and can't supply the normal vaccine. Which is all fine and dandy, but alot of people can get sick in 3 weeks, making the vaccine useless to them, and resulting in needing less of the vaccine for the rest of the province. Oh wait, maybe that's their goal...?
We are on the fence in our home too - although also leaning towards getting it. The clinic is later this week -- and while I am happy we're not the first to get it, I feel like I want to wait a while to see what 'might come up' and to get more data on if in fact the WHO's current recommendation of only one dose being enough will stay or be changed to 2.
I'm incredibly tired of what the media has done with this ... and I feel that we're being 'forced' (although not actually forced) by fear... which is crazy. If in fact this vaccination is so important -- why must it create such chaos and why oh why can they not figure out a way to do this by appointment? (i understand it's cause they don't have enough, but still) I have absolutely no desire to be in a room for hours on end with potentially sick people when we work hard at trying to limit our exposure these days...
The more reading I do, the more frustrated I get -- This is a part of parenting I really would rather not have to deal with!
Amen to this @kayris. I'm always shocked at how upset people get about other people's decisions. If you take the time to weigh the pros and cons and make this very difficult and important decision for you family then you are neither an idiot nor a sheep. You are a parent.
Thanks for the great post Annie.
Has anyone been able to find information about the safety of the adjuvant used in the Canadian vaccine? It's called ASO3. Most of the claims of the safety of the H1N1 vaccine say they are based on its similarity to the seasonal flu shot. However the seasonal flu shot does not contain ASO3. From what I can find, the claims of safety of ASO3 are based on studies of the H5N1 (avian) flu shots... the numbers look good, but I can't find any actual studies to look at, only the WHO's interpretation... http://www.who.int/vaccine_research/documents/Brief_overview_of_use_of_oil-in-water_emulsions.pdf
Any thoughts?
I definitely wonder about the safety of mass flu shot clinics... I have no interest in being in close quarters for hours with hundreds of people who could potentially already be carrying the flu virus or any other virus. Isn't limiting time in crowds one of the basic principles of infection control?
Just to clarify, I am seriously considering getting the vaccine for my child and I (she's almost a year old and I will soon be returning to work in paediatric health care), but do not intend to get the shot via a crowded clinic - I am, however, fortunate enough to have access to the vaccine via my doctor's office.
This is an argument I hear a lot, and I respect it.
If my children are sick, whether they are vaccinated or not I do not send them to school or take them out of the house.
From what I have read the flu and swine flu have obvious signs at the outset, and therefore my children would not be exposing other people unintentionally.
Great discussion - nice to see divergent views discussing instead of name calling. For us, we've decided to delay getting the vaccine for now - I'm currently of the mind that we won't get it, but am continuing to follow it carefully.
For me, after lots of research, the risk of getting severely ill with H1N1 is outweighed by concerns about rare side effects that aren't clear from the limited testing and the long-term consequences of not obtaining natural immunity to the virus. Would it be different if we had a small infant, I was pregnant, we had a cancer sufferer in the family? Very probably yes.
We are taking steps to maintain health (as we do every fall, really) - Vitamin D & C, probiotics, lots of fresh veg and garlic, proper sleep and focus on hygiene, hygiene, hygiene... (which includes not standing in line for 6 hours in crowded places with strangers). I got a neat email from DD's school that I've posted to my blog - doudoubebe.blogspot.com
Same, we're leaning towards yes here too but don't feel we need to rush to a crowded clinic and then wait for hours and hours to get it, possibly being turned away, or picking something up in the process. We are also fortunate that our family doctor will be offering it (for our 5 and under kids, at least) very soon, soon enough for us (unless of course they run out?!) If there were other factors, perhaps we would have braved the lines last week.
I really found this whole thread very interesting and helpful!
The title of this article is a joke right? MD's, immunologists, pathologists, scientists, researchers, ph'd's, professors, and many other's are NOT getting this particular vaccine because it is an absolute fact that vaccine's have known safety and efficacy issues. One also absolutely must realize that the percentage of those suffering serious consequences for h1n1 is well under 1%.
Based on this article's title we should also be asking if people are idiots for going to bed tonight without putting on a crash helmet, shoulder pads, knee pads, jockstrap, and also seat belting themselves into bed are idiots. That isn't even a fair analogy ... because the protection of vaccines have a storied history of causing collateral damage. The first 2 receiving the cowpox vaccine died at 20 and 21 years old from TB. The history of protect in one area and cause problems (perhaps years, decades later) in another area has never changed for vaccines. It will require researching beyond the soundbites that the industry mouthpieces are promoting however.
@borealis4: Did you read the post or only the title? The title was in reference to the post that I was commenting on in this article.
I hadn't read it fully. I became a participant to that which I rail against. -This issue becomes an emotional one all too quickly which of course doesn't work. Thanks. I believe the most informed way to vaccinate is by looking at each vaccine individually and then weighing all the data. Sounds like you have a more cautious approach as well. The issue is a complex one and it fascinates me largely because the only way to make an informed decision requires looking into it much more deeply than relying on the mouthpieces / 'respected authorities' infomercials. Very quickly when one rolls up their sleeves they find that the CDC has no shortage of data which makes current vaccine policy a lot less straight forward.
"If humanity is to pass safely through its present crisis on earth, it will be because a majority of individuals are now doing their own thinking." -- Buckminster Fuller
Deep breath....
We are all getting vaccinated today. I'm not comfortable with the decision, especially since the Canadian government still hasn't released any of its promised weekly reports on adverse reactions. That said, the number of people with the flu keeps increasing here, including people close to us.
The vaccine clinic in our area is today and tomorrow and then who knows when. No further dates planned. In a nearby location, there are more planned for December, but they are just a few days before we leave on vacation and I don't want to either (a) get a vaccine a day or two before leaving the country or (b) get sick while on vacation in a country where I'm not sure we'll get the health care that we need.
So, we get the vaccine today or we don't get it until January.
Sigh.
FYI - I replied to radmama's comment and she replied back to mine. However, the comment nesting seems to be at its limit, so they somehow appear at the end of the post after even comments that have been posted more recently.
Good luck!
It's hard to make a decision when you don't know the full risk/benefit profile. I do know a few families who have gone for it and have experienced muscle aches. One teenager had full fledged flu symptoms after the vaccine. Hundreds of children have now been vaccinated in NS and I have heard nothing on more severe reactions than that.
Yes, yes, yes!!!! This is my biggest concern - I don't think all vaccines are bad. I don't think all vaccines are necessary. I want good info, about both the safety of vaccines and true death and complications rates for a given illness. I feel like one child dying of "suspected" H1N1 has made people completely overreact and act like all our children are going to die if they don't get the vaccine.
One of my children has been very sick this week. I don't have a clue if it was H1N1 or the flue or a cold virus (he's getting better now though!) But I do know we've had reported H1N1 in our school and feel it was too late to even attempt to get the vaccine, if I wanted it, which I don't think I did.
You're certainly right about that! A local church nursery was infected with chicken pox because a parent brought her two year old in and left her in the nursery with the babies - not realizing that the VACCINE is live and her daughter was shedding the virus to all the infants in the nursery as well as the two elderly care workers - one of whom was not immune to the disease and ended up getting it. (The nursery moms always tell her if any of the kids get vaccines so she can find a sub - this gal didn't).
No - no one lives in a bubble.
One of my main concerns about the nasal vaccine is the live virus component and the ability of vaccinated kids to shed the virus onto those around them.
Which is EXACTLY why every parent has to weigh the risks and benefits for THEMSELVES and make the best decision for THEIR family and THEIR unique situation. That's part of parenting - these choices are NEVER one-size fits all.
((Hugs Steph))
Angela <
Sigh. Good luck, Annie! We're getting the shot too... I have a meeting at work today and will be returning to work in a week and a half. I heard yesterday that there is an outbreak at my workplace (I work in health care), so I decided that if I'm likely to be exposed to the virus regularly, I may as well protect myself and my family, as well as the clients I work with (many are medically fragile children). Like you, Annie, I'm not totally comfortable with it, but have decided that based on the current information the potential benefits of the vaccination outweigh the potential risks, for me and my family anyway. So, I'll get the shot at work today (they're running clinics for staff), and my little one will get her's next week at her doctor. We're hoping my husband will also get it, but clinics here are sticking to the priority groups, and he's not in any of the groups.
Marcy,
I'm an American living in Canada and I can tell you with 100% accuracy that you can only get the adjuvanted vaccine here unless you are pregnant. I have two small children and I'm worried SICK about giving them this vaccine here. If I could get it in the U.S., I would get it in a heartbeat.
In reply to the squalene that is found naturally in our bodies, that is correct. The problem with the adjuvent containing the squalene booster that is INJECTED, is the problem. The immune system attacks it as it should, but it also attacks the naturally occuring squalene in the body, leaving the nervous system unprotected and vulnerable to diseases. Just wanted to clarify that. You read it contains squalene which is naturally occuring, but what they don't tell you is what it does when it is injected unnaturally.
[...] started making it available and how long it takes to truly provide protection). But I’ve read so many posts on the topic recently, trying to make sure if I was making the right choice, it’s [...]
Having a child that falls into the priority category plus has underlying an underlying medical condition, for us, it's a no brainer to get it. However, here in the states its hard to get your hands on it. I refuse to stand in line for 6 hours with my kids. My pediatrician still doesn't have the regular flu shot either, so I am thinking they may never even get the h1n1 shot ever.