Why are adults allowed to say "shit" but kids aren't?
Tuesday, November 1, 2011 
At dinner the other night, Julian had a burning question:
Why are adults allowed to say "shit", but kids aren't?
This is the child who had to reflect on his use of the word "poo" at school last year, so I thought perhaps he was just searching for reasonable alternatives.
I didn't have a good answer to his question. The problem with questions like these is that I'm not very good at hiding my own opinions while upholding some sort of correct worldview. You see, I don't think there is anything wrong with the word "shit". At least, I don't think that "shit" is any worse than "crap" or "poo" or "doggie doodoo" or "woo woo" or any other word one might use to describe feces. I also don't think that "shit" is any worse than "shoot" or "ouch" or "oh no" or any other word one might use to express how it feels to stub your big toe.
I read through the wikipedia entry on "shit" to see if there was something about the word that maybe I didn't know. Was there some deeper meaning that made it less appropriate than other terms that are used interchangeably but considered acceptable? I didn't find one. I read about the seven words you can never say on (public) television, and while I agree that children don't need to be exposed to vulgar sexual language, I really couldn't find any reason why "shit" and "piss" are on that list.
A while back, Mrs. Flinger tackled this topic on her blog. Her words have stuck with me and defined how I approach the words that sometimes come out of kids mouths:
I taught four year olds for a few years back before I knew what I wanted to be when I grew up. I learned that words get tossed around as a way to “test” their power. If you give the word power, the kids will run with it. My husband and I always said cussing is just that.. cussing. Meh. I do it all the time.
Ultimately, I couldn't come up with a good reason why Julian shouldn't use the word "shit". Not at the time. Not after the fact.
So my answer to his question was:
I don't know. (incidentally, he is used to me saying "I don't know" by now).
You can say "shit" at home if you want, just don't say it at school.
My partner added something along the lines of some people thinking that it is rude. We left it at that.
This was just a test run, I imagine, for the day when we have to explain to him why he cannot say random religious words in French, like "Mon ostie de saint-sacrament de câlice de crisse!"
Image credit: Silly Little Man on flickr
Reader Comments (73)
Probably more of a confidence thing. In the workplace the people who seem more confident, that is less "I don't know", seem to get ahead. I don't like that about facts, but I do see the value in that response for actions.
Eg: Jill, are you going to get the project in on time and budget?
Confident Jill: "You bet, working on it right now!"
Honest Jill: "Well, I don't know. There are so many factors that could go wrong and many things I still have to work out before I can know."
Each one may be speaking from the same set of circumstances.
Or maybe the parents aren't ready for the consequences of their child swearing in front of mum-in-law :)
For the most part - i am indifferent to swear words from my kids. As long as it's in context (like they dropped something really painful on their foot & say shi*t) and never at someone then really, it doesn't bother me.
Thanks for Joseph and Mary in the garden: I love it and will try to use it!
(To stay in the tradition of religious swear words. But this one is way more creative (to me, in any case) than câlice de ciboire--and here I am doing what disturbed me in PhD's post.)
I learned about 'shut up' the same way I learned about 'shit'-- by using it inappropriately. In this case, at home. It's my partner who won't tolerate being told to shut up. He says (and I believe it) that it's way ruder than what I actually mean when I ask him to please shut up.
Yet the alternatives he came up with ('Could you please stop talking' or, maybe, 'Shut your mouth') aren't as satisfying. Oh well.
In the minority here, but I personally prefer not to hear adults swear either. In my world, there aren't two sets of rules whereby it's okay for adults and not for kids.
I also have many educated friends but most don't feel the need to cuss. I vehemently disagree with the concept that vulgarity "adds" something to the conversation. Most people who swear a lot seem to use it instead of "um". Substituting "shit" doesn't make you sound more educated to me (sorry!)
Others get more creative but actually it's possible to convey the same messages without resorting to using words designed to shock or disgust. I challenge the assertion that anyone "needs" to use "shit". Sometimes that means having more self-control over your words. It's easier for the "forbidden" words to slip out, especially if you are often exposed to them. That's why I prefer not to hear them.
I agree on the substitute words. Personally though, I'm not sure why we need to say anything. If I drop something on my foot, I say "ouch". Saying "sugar" or describing various bodily functions or sex acts doesn't make any sense to me.
I just wish that kids were taught appropriate ways of dealing with frustration (towards self, others or situations) instead of just being told "don't cuss".
I agree with Kelly that we really do try to avoid and discourage words that are "attacking" and completely agree with Emma on, well, just about everything. We swear - sometimes more, sometimes less. The kids swear (4-18) sometimes more, sometimes less - always in context. We've given them the same warning as Emma; fortunately most of the folks we hang out with are tolerant people and don't judge them on word choice, regardless of personal preference.
I actually am fairly intolerant regarding people who complain about swear words being used around them (as adults), around children, or by children. What constitutes a "swear" word is completely arbitrary and socially constructed and the complaints sound identical to those who are troubled about breastfeeding in public --- or a same-sex couple kissing or holding hands in public or any other such things. These expression are not aimed at you (now getting "cussed out" is a whole different issue and would be bothersome regardless of the crudeness of language) so not to be dismissive, but I tend toward a bit of "get over yourself".
My daughter is only 3 1/2 so we haven't really entered this territory yet, but I can understand the dilemma that we will no doubt soon face. Actually, I now remember one instance where I had to explain that a word was bad and we shouldn't say it. Actually, come to think of it, it might have been "shit". We try not to swear around the kids (I'll never forget the 2 year old I heard walking around saying "f**k" and finding out that she said it often), but sometimes, things slip out. How to you explain to a young child, do what we say, not what we do?
When I accidentally let the word slip and daughter repeated, I had to explain that it wasn't a nice word and we shouldn't say it and mommy was bad to say it. Of course, she kept saying it in an effort to understand why we shouldn't say it (luckily she hasn't said it since), and part of me wanted to laugh to hear that word come out of her sweet little mouth.
I can't protect her from bad words or phrases forever. The most likely scenario will be that she'll learn these words from her classmates at some point. To be honest, aside from the f-word which I learned from my dad, I learnt pretty much everything else from my friends. The best we can do is teach her that in many situations, these words are not appropriate, though sometimes they are used to express feelings of anger, frustration or pain. Hopefully, she'll learn, and later my son as well, that you don't just go around using those words in every day sentences. Fingers crossed!
I'm a Middle School teacher at an international school with a culturally-diverse population of kids (and adults). The appropriateness of certain words is a topic that comes up every so often; some nationalities are more sensitive than others. Personally, I'm a bit on the conservative side when it comes to word choice and would prefer that my students don't use the words hate/suck/stupid/jerk/dumb/crap/etc. If they let one out because they're surprised/shocked/hurt, ok, no big deal. I'll remind them to be sensitive to other people's sensibilities then life goes on. But if they use a word to demean or hurt another person (however innocuous or harmless it may seem), then we've got a problem and I'll ask the student to step outside for a private conversation. There is a huge difference for me between "Oh ****! I forgot my notebook." and "You are ****" or "Your work is ****"
It's difficult to have a hard-and-fast rule because each family is different. I try to teach my students that they have a choice in the kind of person they want to be, that words have power (and can make people react in particular ways), there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of reacting to a situation, there many different ways to express how you're feeling (expand your vocabulary! although this does not always work out the way I envision it would), but it is NEVER acceptable to do something (in words or action) to make another person feel less of themselves.
And all this from just a word.
(Such a great discussion! Thank you to everyone.)
I totally agree with you here. Swear words add nothing to a conversation, in my opinion. I generally find them more of a distraction- as in, "why could that person not think of anything more intelligent to say?"
My parents never swore, and still don't, but my husband's family uses swear words regularly in conversation, which was a bit shocking to me when I first met them. My husband, though, does not.
I plan on teaching my children (the first one is only 2 now), that there are some words that are not polite, and we just don't use them. It's not any different to me than teaching her to say "please" and "thank you".
I agree with you, and this is what I tell my children. I don't tell them children aren't allowed, but adults are, I make a point in not using language around them I don't want them to use. But it has come up, and when my son asked me a while back out of the blue what the "f-word" meant, I told him that it means nothing (wasn't getting into the sexual connotation at that point -- even though he knows all about that, using the proper terms), that people tend to use it when they can't come up with better words to express what they feel. And yes, that it can be offensive to others so not to use it. I heard him recently spell the word out for his brother, who is 4 and spending a lot of time sounding out words lately. He explained he was telling him NOT to use that word. I pointed out little brother would not have even known about it if big brother hadn't brought it up, and that if he goes off and uses it in his JK class, he's likely to find himself in trouble (and of course other parents will be angry that our child taught their child the f-word, and assume we use it regularly at home, which we don't).
I have also been known to swear while driving, and when it comes down to it, a word is just a word. I'm really more concerned about words that are used against others (name-calling). But I do hope to teach my kids that in general conversation, they can be a bit more creative than saying f-this or f-that or shit every other word.
That's an interesting take, though I can't say I agree (breastfeeding, for example, is necessary; using what most consider vulgar language...really isn't). I have to say I feel a bit of "get over yourself" towards people that constantly swear (often loudly) in public, particularly in front of children, because it seems like it's being done for shock value and attention, as if everyone in earshot should care what they are reacting to at that moment (while showing at the same time how little they care about offending those people).
fair enough on the breastfeeding issue :). but i will stand by the same-sex couple example. I guess I really haven't run across the type of people you are referring to. Most everyone I know who swears does it as part of their typical lexicon (amount varying and I would say this applies to my family) or I'll run across people who "cuss people out" (fortunately not anyone I regularly run across)and that behavior I have a problem with regardless of the language used. I'm having a hard time even thinking of a "shock value" moment that I've experienced.....
That's interesting that your kid picked up on girls "not knowing" and boys knowing. Women and men do use language differently. There have even been some papers written on exactly the fact that women preface their opinions with "I don't know" more often than men.
My partner's niece was of the opinion that men drive and women don't/shouldn't/can't. I guess her dad is the driver in the family.
Glad I'm not alone in this. I cuss, and I believe that all words are tools, and no word is inherently bad. I don't like name-calling. Words shouldn't be used for the sole purpose of hurting someone else. But the difference between "darn" and "damn"? Damned if I know. When the time comes, I will tell my daughter not to say it at school, because that is the school's rule, and try to treat other people with respect.
i can answer why you get mad when your child says these things. its the same reason that we dont teach our children any of our "bad" habits or any hateful beliefs we might have. simply put its because you dont want to end up in court, get in trouble, have your child taken away from you or have people look down on you or your parenting skills.
My favorite exclamation lately, which my kids think is hilarious, is "Jesus Christ in a handbasket!" Don't know where that came from since we are anything but religious. :D
I also say "Razzafratzin'!" a lot.
We discuss cussing at times, and put great store in the understanding that giving swear words no energy reduces their appeal to almost nothing. We also, however, talk about being considerate of others, and the importance of developing communication skills and vocabulary so that cussing is unlikely to be resorted to.
Ah, the random French religious words. I grew up on them. My husband laughs every time I unleash a string of them, and my little anglo children look on inquisitively. I can't explain why those are bad words, either. I really don't get the whole language thing. The only thing I've said to my kids about swearing is this:
1. Learn what the word actually means before you use it.
2. Learn where it is acceptable to use it. Some things are acceptable at home and not at school. Some things are more acceptable around your friends than your relatives, etc.
3. Sometimes "inappropriate" words are used as substitutes or fillers in sentences. If you really want to master the English language, test yourself by trying to get at what you're really feeling instead of going to the old "that's so shitty" standby. Why is it shitty? Elaborate.
4. This will not work when you drop something on your foot. No need to elaborate. It just fucking hurts.
The list of things I am allowed to do and my children are not, is endless.
Once they are older I will encourage them to be familiar with the Latin saying: "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi!"
If they don't learn proper language at home (I try very hard to speak eloquently around them), chances are they're never going to learn it later (they are in a poor public school in Manhattan). That's why. No swear words, no questionable words, no words that could not be said on BBC and no rude speaking to adults.
The reason adults can say 'shit' and children can't is that adults (usually) have the judgement not to blurt it out when it is an inappropriate setting (job interview, friend's wedding...) or just randomly throwing out a swear word for every third word.(I say this from experience, as I once, as a child, said "SHIT" into a microphone when I dropped my cue cards during a speech. Not good.)
If your kid can use it without messing up on appropriate time and place, then they are ready.
Like a few other posters, I agree that if my kids want to swear they need to learn where it is socially appropriate to do so and learn to filter their language. This takes some time to learn so we were careful not to swear much when the kids were small. Now that they are between 9-14, I don't mind if they use swear words when in socially appropriate places and would much prefer the random sh*t or f**ck rather than the following:
'like' I was talking to my friend and they 'like' wanted to go out later and I said 'like' yeah, that was a great idea. So you know, we might 'like' head out to a movie, so if you 'like' wanna come, you know, 'like' join us! AHHHHHHH!!
I live in Germany, where cursing is much more socially acceptable than in English I speaking countries, and I have the challenge of raising English native speakers in a place where "Fuck you" is played freely on the radio. I had the jarring experience of hearing that song, which consists almost entirely of obscenity, played at an fair's carousel ride. Words have meaning and to say that they are "just words" dismisses the the purpose of words -- to communicate. Using words that offend gets in the way of communication. They give your listener an excuse to stop listening. If children learn that cussing is acceptable, without anyone realizing how offensive that is to many people, they may miss out on opportunities for meaningful exchange. I strive not to use hurtful or offensive words, but I'm not perfect. When I do hear my kids repeat things I would rather not hear, I talk to them about it and try to find better alternatives for the future. My vocabulary has grown from searching for alternative ways to say "half-assed" and "stupid,"
Yes, what is considered polite is totally a " construct, but that is exactly what social rules are. If you think it's OK for people to say "fuck" in front if children, do you also think it's OK to actually fuck in front of children? I mean, it doesn't hurt anyone, right?