Wednesday
Sep022009
Why I can't recommend Ferber or Weissbluth
Wednesday, September 2, 2009 
I do not think cry it out is an appropriate way to teach babies or children to sleep, whether it is a graduated method (like Ferber) or full-on let 'em scream until they pass out extinction (like Weissbluth) or until they vomit and beyond (like Schafer), I'm not on board. There are some people who have been reading my blog for a long time and consistently express their dismay at my anti-cry-it-out posts. Recently, a few more people have chimed in on my blog and on twitter with their disappointment at my closed-mindedness on this issue.Let me try to explain why I can't recommend them.
I cannot recommend a book or a system that has great suggestions but concludes with a last resort that I consider to be wrong, because ultimately a lot of people will be looking for the easy way out and will take the documentation of that last resort as permission to go ahead and use it.
- I wouldn't recommend a marketing book that suggested lying or spamming as a last resort if other techniques don't work.
- I wouldn't recommend a financial management book that suggested cooking the books a bit if you don't think the real results will please shareholders.
- I wouldn't recommend a book on getting out of debt that suggested robbing a bank as a last resort.
- I wouldn't recommend a book on how to write a good term paper that suggested buying it off the Internet if you don't have enough time left to do it properly.
- I wouldn't recommend a weight loss book that suggested anorexia or bulimia was an appropriate step to take if healthy eating and exercise doesn't let you lose 50 lbs in 5 weeks.
There are books that I own and would recommend that include some things that are not 100% my cup of tea, but that I do not think are wrong necessarily. Those books I will happily recommend with the caveat that I am not 100% of the same mind as the author. But cry it out is something I do think is wrong and I will not recommend any book that includes it even as a last resort.
I also cannot recommend a book that includes a cry it out method when there are other alternatives that are less likely to be damaging in any way:
- I wouldn't recommend that someone buy bottles with bisphenol-A (BPA) in them when there are stainless steel or glass alternatives available.
- I wouldn't recommend that someone formula feed if they are able to breastfeed.
- I wouldn't recommend that someone drive drunk if they can call a cab.
- I wouldn't recommend hitch hiking if public transportation is available.
- I wouldn't recommend burning your old tires instead of recycling them.
- I wouldn't recommend using the morning after pill or abortions as regular birth control instead of planning ahead and using other types of contraceptives.
Perhaps there are people who feel they cannot or choose not to use those alternatives for whatever reason or that have decided that they don't work for whatever reason. There are plenty of other people that will tell them that it is okay, so I don't need to compromise myself by recommending them on my blog.
I know there are people who are disappointed in me for being so closed minded on this issue. While I think that is too bad and it saddens me to disappoint others, it would sadden me even more if I compromised my beliefs and disappointed myself. You do not need to make the same decisions that I do or come to the same conclusions that I do and I will not call you a bad parent for making different choices that I do. But I will not change my position on this. I do not think it is appropriate to leave a child alone to cry to sleep. Period.
Image credit: Ernesto JT on flickr.
Reader Comments (150)
Becca, I agree with you completely. I was co-sleeping with a VERY exhausted, miserable baby and resorted to my own version of Ferber for Hippies, as I put it. I was prepared to let her protest -- not even cry -- no longer than three minutes at a time for a maximum of 40 minutes, at the direction of my Sears-y, anti-CIO pediatrician. I was WRECKED about it, and my baby was miserable, just like yours and then ... uh, she never cried. She fussed to sleep -- less than she was doing next to me or in my arms, I might add -- and was out like a light in less than 20 minutes, with nary a tear. She never cried. She got mad --yelling, not crying -- for about three minutes, then rolled around to get comfortable-- but she gets mad in my arms, too, so that's just her sleep thing.
However, I will also say that I am fairly certain that some of this was developmental, and that if I'd tried it earlier, it would not have yielded the same results. So I'm not sure how I feel about it, ultimately.
I can't imagine letting a child cry until he vomited. That poor baby.
Also, we now do a mix of crib and co-sleeping, and it works for us. And had she actually cried? My feelings may have been VERY different. But again, she never did. She just, uh, went to sleep. Like she was RELIEVED I wasn't touching her and overparenting her to sleep. The other thing I meant to add was that I did it because she was like your baby, Becca -- not sleeping AT ALL. And MISERABLE. Getting up every 45 minutes. I tried Pantley, to no avail. I tried Karp. To no avail. For WEEEEEEKS.
She still gets up 2-3 times a night to eat or snuggle, and comes to bed with me at 4 a.m. at the latest. I didn't do this for my own convenience, is what I'm saying. I did it so that she would get some actual sleep and be healthier and happier -- which, honestly, she is. I'll get up 2-3 times a night for the next three DECADES if I have to. In comparison to every 45 minutes, and having a really unhappy, overtired baby, that's NOTHING.
Also, I love how I'm saying I did something. I didn't do anything. I just PUT HER DOWN, which is something I'd never tried before. True idiotic genius!
I think there is a big difference between a baby who fusses slightly or protest cries (my son is more of a whimper) and a baby who cries him/herself to sleep. Frequently I get to the bottom of the steps and my son (3 1/2 months) whimpers for a minute or so. If it gets to full blown crying or lasts more than a few minutes, we go back up. At least with my son, there is a huge difference between fussing and crying.
So your thought is that CIO is better earlier because it is easier to abandon our babies when they are more completely unable to fend for themselves? I guess you wouldn't want your baby trying to crawl to get to you; better that they can only lie helplessly on their back. Hey, while you're at it, why not let your nonmobile baby cry until vomiting for a couple weeks.
That's not "doing your best", that's doing the least. This thread is starting to take a sickening turn.
Crying oneself to sleep is not a healthy sleep environment ever.
Even when I am holding my child, comforting him, stroking his cheek etc. if he is crying as he falls asleep on my shoulder in exhaustion I don't think that is a healthy sleep environment but at least I'm do my best to help him through whatever is distressing him.
I used to be dogmatically against CIO as you seem to be. But strangely enough it was actually my journey through EC'ing that helped me come to terms with it in some cases. Through EC I learned two relevant things
#1 babies are a lot more aware and understand a lot more your intent than we give them credit for conventionally
#2 anything you do regularly to a child is conditioning them - there is no hoping of not "training" them. you can train them to go to sleep with your help or go to sleep without your help, but either way you train them through your interactions with them - no escaping it.
And abstracting out from there, my fundamental principles are that I want to *believe* in my babies and *respond* to them, but the particulars of whether you show them this by being with them every second, or by repeatedly coming into their room to reassure them don't matter so much - because I believe babies do understand your intent and do know you are still there and just asking them to be on their own for a while, even from the age of 4 or 5 months.
So... I do want to "train" my children to know that I am there for them and believe in them, which makes my first choice full presence. But if that is not working, then I am willing to pursue other options as long as I feel sure they know I am not abandoning them, and I believe what they are communicating. My last choice would be shutting the door and leaving them to CIO for as long as it takes - I think that's immensely stressful on a baby and should only be tried if every other option yields worse effects on the family.
My first child was pretty classic constant nurser, up frequently at night, could only be soothed by heavy attention - needed to be nursed or walked to sleep all the time until over 3.5 years old. The times we tried to ask him to get by on less of our involvement (nurse and then cuddle, rocking instead of walking) he just got more and more upset. We were able to give him what he needed until he outgrew the need, and for that I am grateful - he's a very secure child now at 4.75 who when offered the choice between one more bedtime story or 5 minutes cuddling will choose the bedtime story!
My second child did lead me down an intermediate path, though - perhaps it was the happy oversupply of a second-time lactatrix, but she would not fall asleep while nursing in the early months - it was too stimulating for her and kept her awake. Likewise, constant walking and rocking kept her too revved up to sleep. We eventually found that Karp's 5S's worked well for her to short-circuit her getting worked up when tired and let her relax into sleep quickly. As she outgrew swaddle and pacifier (well, as I weaned her off those from 4-6 months fearing long-term use) she struggled to find that quick switch into sleep, and it turned out that my very presence was getting her worked up when she needed to sleep - she was often crying for 45 minutes while with me because she couldn't relax to sleep - not even with nursing or walking as had worked for her brother. So I tried leaving her alone for brief periods instead - to remove that stimulus - and for her it worked. She would cry for 3-5 minutes, but without stimuli, she could then relax and head in to sleep. When she learned to crawl, it became a whole other ball game because she was never in a crib, and would just crawl around and wake herself up... and then I basically had to train her *into* the habit of nursing to sleep. Even now at 28 months she still can't always nurse to sleep very easily - we recently nightweaned because she was staying up for over 10 minutes - sometimes an hour while nursing 2-3x in the middle of the night, and we were getting really exhausted. She still nurses before bed and then cosleeps, but if and when she asks to nurse in the middle of the night, I remind her that it keeps us both up and makes us tired, and we'll nurse in the morning instead. I'm happy I waited to do this until it was a problem for us and until she was mature enough to understand what I was asking her. She does sometimes get upset, and I acknowledge her feelings - so she knows I believe in her - but I restate my expectations (the training part) - that she go back to sleep now and nurse later.
I think you can do this with a pre-verbal baby, too because of my point #1 (awareness) - but it's harder to communicate with them and takes more sensitivity to communicate the right message to them and truly listen to what they are telling you. So I think it takes *immense* belief in your baby to leave your baby alone to cry in a way that is physically and psychologically healthy - if you approach it with the attitude that your child is an inconvenience who needs to be trained to be "easy" - that carries psychological damage that continues well outside whatever time they may be crying alone for. If you believe your baby is upset about being alone, but remains secure in knowing you are there (if in another room) *and* you have some perspective that being in the room with them will make things worse, then I think you can humanely ask them to try going to sleep on their own - staying aware of how they react to the attempts, and providing for their sense of security in as many other ways as possible (cosleeping, babywearing, lots of s2s contact).
I do understand how dangerous is it to condone CIO at all because of the cultural pressures towards it and the tendency to skip the whole part about deeply understanding and honestly responding to your child... but I think like any intervention away from the biological norm, there is a time and place for it and you can mitigate the unwanted side effects with a careful and considered approach. I don't want to promote c-section, hospital birth, crib sleeping, formula feeding or even time outs, either, but I do accept that there are situations where they can be done with love and care when the alternatives are worse.
p.s. a pet peeve of mine is the word "Ferberize" which treats infants as objects to which a process must be applied. it's completely opposed to my view of sleep habits as something you negotiate in your relationship with the child. i've heard even Ferber dislikes the term ;)
Actually, we were thinking about the physical safety of the baby. We figured at that age, they wouldn't be strong enough to hurt themselves. Some older babies that we know would probably throw a big fit and may hurt themselves in the crib in just a couple of minutes. It turned out, timing was just right for us.
Thanks jonniker and Don't Pat the Belly. I just wanted to add, that although many things may seem completely wrong and unnatural there may be situations in which the wrong thing might be at least a little bit right. Things aren't always black and white - there are almost always shades of grey. There's the old intro to philosophy example of theft (I hope no one jumps down my throat for this analogy). Theft is wrong... but if a man steals life-saving medicine for his child because he cannot afford it, is it still totally wrong? Is it less wrong than it would be for a man who steals maliciously? Intent may make a difference. Sometimes the end may justify the means.
I believe that crying is a baby's way to communicate - and I would never let my kids CIO or recommend it to others. I do have relatives who have used that method - They know that If I were ever to babysit I could not do CIO.
I've heard many excuses including that it will strengthen their lungs to CIO.
I coslept - and my babies did sleep through the night - they would nurse when they wanted to and we'd both still be alseep. It was a magical time. My babies knew that at the slightest whimper I'd be there to pick them up, change them, feed them, soothe them, whatever they needed. Why would I not? Why would that end at bedtime?
As a mom of much older children (one grown, one teen) as well as younger ones (one preschooler, one infant), I have to say that from my perspective, the whole issue of getting kids to sleep seems so insignificant to me in the whole scheme of things. I have never, ever, let any of my kids CIO, and all of them were sleeping well on their own by 3-4 years of age. The very notion that they will "never" sleep well on their own is laughable to me, when I see how much "like a log" my older two (and even my preschooler) sleep. I can also say all of this as a person with health problems, too, including fibromyalgia and a sleep disorder of my own, so it's not as though I have it somehow "easier" than others or can't understand their fatigue; if anything, I have it worse. I do what I can to take care of my children when they need it, and they DO outgrow the need, as I can attest to. I was a CIO victim myself (yes, I said "victim") and never once did it occur to me to do that to my own children.
Rock on sister!!!!
nice to see you out here mommyingaround! a little support from the trenches.
when ferber comes up it seems that all rational thinking goes out and the reactions are pure emotional. like the comment above about being easier to abandon your child. as if you even implied that in your comment. but that's what happens, i see it every time.
regardless, the only point i was only ever trying to make is that some parents that may in fact benefit from ferber are scared into thinking that it is completely wrong because of the very posts that are on this site. so they're denied a potentially positive experience from misinformed people. that's really been all i was trying to communicate. and almost every post proves me right in the way people react and assume things about how someone parents because they used ferber.
arguments based on misinformation are dangerous in any realm.
there are no such things as "ever" or "never" in parenting, education, etc. we are a wonderful, varied and highly adaptable species. which is why we're still here (i can't vouch for the success but we're still here). and people should have access to all kinds of techniques, styles, instincts, etc.
i love humans.
with shining light,
night night
dz.
I'm not sure what you mean by "unfounded"... I have read Ferber's book and I even own it. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but I have read it cover to cover. I definitely like his scientific studies and explanations of how sleep works, how it develops and how poor sleep affects other areas of your life. In fact I even made my husband read a few chapters because my husband has AWFUL sleep habits!
Here's my opinion: I think the problem with books like Ferber's book is that the parents with children who have serious problems with sleep -- like my son -- do not need a book which contains anywhere inside the book that it's okay to leave a child crying, even for a minute, if they already have trouble sleeping on their own. Ferber's 30 years of experience and scientific studies are awesome. Pair them up in a book like Elizabeth Pantley's No-Cry Sleep Solution (and she does have all the great "science behind sleeping)... then you've got a book that's appropriate for all children, especially those with strong need for parenting to sleep. That's the issue I have with Ferber's book and why I would never recommend it to a parent who's totally sleep-deprived and at the end of their rope... those parents already know about extinction and close-the-door-leave-the-room... they're just looking for a doctor's name on the cover to ease their conscience to give up on helping their child.
Anyway from what you say about your child I think it's going to be really hard for you to understand the type of parent/child combo which can exist in the world... and that's why it would be better if Ferber's book did not exist!!!!
I am slightly disturbed by the rationale that it is better to start CIO before the baby crawls, for it's own safety. The baby is distressed by being alone and that is why s/he is trying to get to you. I am disturbed by the lack of attention to that detail.
There are other options and each child is different. But reading about or hearing about blatantly ignoring a child's cry, especially if they can't get to you and you won't go to them, is quite disturbing for me.
<>
Amen!
Why on earth does dusty need back-up on a post where the blogs author is explaining HER decision not to recommend certain books because they are not compatible with HER beliefs??
Judging another parent's choices is not disrespectful of them. The judgment is what happens between our ears. We own that and it can take whatever form we like. Respect is shown through our actions. I'm showing you a great deal of respect right now by moderating my response to your comment and applying a fairly stringent self edit.
It is intellectually dishonest to argue that we should show our respect of other parents by refraining from judging their choices as if all choices were equal and none were worthy of judging negatively. Part of the consequences of being alive and making decisions is that others will judge you. Quite frankly, Annie saying she can't recommend these authors should be no skin off your nose. If what she said is bothering you then I'd suggest looking inward rather than out at others to resolve the issue.
Rosemary - It you have some research to back up your belief that babies understand our intentions as infants (with brains that are not fully mature) I would love to look at it.
Melissa:
Just curious. Do you not have any instincts telling you that it is wrong to leave a child to cry until he vomits? Or do you have those instincts but somehow feel that it is necessary despite your body and mind telling you that it is wrong?
I'm asking because I have a very strong physical and emotional reaction to the sound of a baby crying. It is so strong that I could not bring myself to do something like that. I would be violently ill if I did.
So I'm curious if you did not have that same reaction or if you did and somehow found a way to repress it.
Thank you for writing this! I'm a first time mom of a 2.5 month old boy and he won't nap during the day and I can't even consider letting him cry. I come from a 'spare the rod spoil the child'/'children should be seen and not heard' upbringing and that style of parenting just doesn't sit well with me. I do not believe for one second you can "spoil" an infant but my mother sure does - she's already told me that I've spoiled my son because I pick him up when he cries and try to figure out what he needs. So, it's glaringly obvious that I should not be getting advice from my mother.
As a result of this entry, I ordered two of Elizabeth Pantley's no-cry solution books. I should get them next week. Hopefully they help!
Thanks again, and I'll be checking back regularely :)
Carol - here's a link to an article which describes some research: http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/news/insight/article/681813--what-s-going-on-in-the-brain-of-a-baby As I understand it, there are other research projects that talk about how babies are capable of understanding much more than we give them cred for.
As for me, I also have that violent physical and emotional reaction to a baby crying that was talked about earlier that steers me away from CIO methods. This reaction has lessened to a degree with my second child because I need to balance between both children's needs, but it still remains enough of a factor that I prefer other methods.
intellectually dishonest, hmmm.
i've made no judgments, this is a blog, i've only been posting comments and thoughts. i've been quite clear in expressing respect for this blog and its author. i was simply expressing my thoughts on common reactions to ferber. nothing more.
skin off my nose? completely intact, thank you. :)
if you'd taken the time to read, my concern (i'm happy to repeat myself yet again *sigh*) is that some parents miss out on potentially positive results from a system demonized by misinformation. this is perfectly legitimate and neither intellectually dishonest or not based on any judgments placed on this blog or its author.
and i would defend other demonized systems with the very same argument, whether they be political, educational, spiritual, etc. (or parental in this case). especially systems un-researched (or even read) by those who demonize
my wife and i read this blog because we like it. therefore as a reader i'm free to post my thoughts when something i care about comes up, as are you. that's all this is. the last time i checked, that's what blogs were all about. a democratic (albeit sometimes anarchic) forum for discussion.
thank you, carol
and have a lovely day.
with light, as always
dz.
(time to move on)
bonjours a tous
" ...but I think like any intervention away from the biological norm, there is a time and place for it and you can mitigate the unwanted side effects with a careful and considered approach. I don’t want to promote c-section, hospital birth, crib sleeping, formula feeding or even time outs, either, but I do accept that there are situations where they can be done with love and care when the alternatives are worse."
well said! especially the part about love and care. compassion should be part of any process involving your child or any human being for that matter.
dz.
(couldn't resist!)
interesting, and relevant, article.
http://www.babble.com/japan-co-sleeping-common/
dz.
It is interesting and relevant because there are also studies that have found that parents who co-sleep and parents who do cry it out are generally happier with the state of their child's sleep than parents who attempt to put their child in a crib, but not do cry it out. Parents who want to have their baby in a crib, but also want to tend to their needs at night end up frustrated with the constant up and down and back and forth, whereas parents that either tend to their child's needs in their own bed or use an intervention like cry it out to avoid dealing with their nighttime needs will get enough sleep.
Yes, our culture and our upbringing shapes how we parent. But we also need to find a way to get over it in cases where it could be harmful. A lot of people were spanked or even abused as children and their first instinct when their child misbehaves may be to raise their hand to that child. Those people have to work harder to avoid abusing their child than someone that wasn't abused themselves. Same thing with co-sleeping. Someone that grew up with solitary sleep may need to work harder to be okay with sleeping with a baby than someone who grew up co-sleeping. But no one said that parenting wasn't hard work. Also I wonder why almost all Westerners seem to be able to adjust to sleeping with a spouse, but this researcher suddenly claims their solitary sleep as a child prevents them from sharing a bed when a baby arrives. Seems a bit illogical to me.
phd
this will be my last post on the subject. :)
btw, i did not comment on the article for a reason. i just said that i read it and found it interesting. period.
there are exceptions to every rule and every study. and we are one. we chose to co-sleep right from the beginning because as parents our instinct was such. and we loved it and would have continued but at 8 months our child stopped enjoying sleeping with us because she stopped getting full night sleeps. she was grumpy in the morning and her nap schedule was thrown off. our instincts, after much thought, told us that it was simply from her movements (she moves a lot in her sleep). she was suddenly waking herself up a lot. even in a king size bed. after talks with other parents and some sleep books, we chose ferber. we were hesitant but willing to try and, lo and behold, it worked like a charm and she immediately took to sleeping in her crib. in fact has been doing so, 9-10 hours every night for the last 10 months. it was not cruel, ever, she never cried for more than a few minutes. (btw, ferber clearly suggests that you pick a schedule that you are comfortable with whether it's 30 seconds or 3 minutes between times that you go to the child to comfort).
so back to the only point i have ever truly defended in all these posts. i simply hope that parents that could potentially benefit from ferber, as we did, are not scared away by all the talk of negligence, cruelty, etc. these are very strong words and in fact not applicable.
it's not for everyone. nothing is. but it might be for someone that has built up an emotional reaction to ferber due to misinformation and hyperbole.
please note, to everyone, i never used the term ferberize in any of my posts. i don't like it either and agree that it gives the sense of your child as product.
also, for the record. the mother that claimed ferber worked for her first child then witnessed her second child cry to the point of vomiting. that's not ferber and i would never defend something like that.
okay
that's it for me.
dz.
over and out
As my final point to you dustyz I wanted to clarify that I consider my emotional reaction to Ferber to be due to maternal instinct, not misinformation and hyperbole.
Carol - I don't have specific references in mind, though I'm sure I've read some research about babies being highly emotionally aware. Doing elimination communication has opened up another avenue of communication with my babies before they are verbal, and I've learned a lot from them through EC'ing. If you are tense and anxious and unsure about what you are doing, they tense up and can't relax and release their sphincters. When you are relaxed and assured and playful, they relax and open up. I've seen the same effect with breastfeeding "struggles" and realize now that I was getting into power struggles with my days-old baby trying to get him to latch on... I'd thought power struggles only started in the toddler years! So I do think there will be a difference in the emotional consequences of CIO to the infant depending on their emotional read of the parent - if they see the parent is calm and reassuring their reaction is going to be different (on average, every child is a special case, know your child, etc.) than if the parent is angry and punitive about CIO. Likewise, the parent has a different experience if they know they are doing the best thing for their child than if they are unsure of themselves or locked into a power struggle with their child - whether doing CIO or deliberately not doing CIO - one way promotes confidence and compassion - the other anxiety and detachment. The emotional currents run deeper than the surface expression of whether you perform CIO or not.
In the case of my second child - the alternative was having her cry in arms for a hour as I broke down her resistance to sleep (and as much as she wanted me there, she would often push me away while I held her) and leave my 2 year old with his needs unmet for that time versus...nursing my daughter in bed, giving her a chance to go to sleep that way, then telling her she was safe and asking her to try sleeping on her own and leaving her alone for 5 minutes to see whether she would fall asleep or not. I learned if her crying was intensifying after 3 minutes or still going on at 5 minutes that it wasn't going to work. My message I was communicating to her was: my expectation is that you will go to sleep nursing in bed... that's what I'd like you to do. If you're done nursing and still can't fall asleep, I'd like you to try lying down in our bed and resting on your own, you are safe, mama loves you, and mama will come back and check on you in a few minutes.
One piece of direct evidence I have of her awareness at that age is that from 5 months on she has called her brother by name - imperfectly pronounced at first, to be sure! but she understood what was going on around her to a degree that I did not believe possible when I had my first, and only realized through doing EC (and to a lesser extent, through breastfeeding).
What has actually worked best for my daughter for sleep through the 2+ years is lying with her with my back turned to her - I am present, but not engaged and stimulating her. Still, she will usually take 30-45 minutes of what I call "chasing her tail" before she settles down and it's testament to my very involved husband and my very patient older child that we've been able to allow her this kind of time most of the time.
Even if babies can understand their parents intentions, I think there is a gap between understanding intentions and being emotionally handle the situation. For example, even if a child understands that mom just wants her to go to sleep, that won't necessarily take away her fear or her hunger or her thirst or her pain or whatever it is that is keeping her from sleeping to begin with. I think most (but not all) parents will reasonable respond to hunger, thirst and pain, but I think too many are quick to dismiss fear as unreasonable or irrational. My children have been afraid of many things that I am not scared of and that I think it is silly to be scared of, but it doesn't change the fact that they are scared.
Yes, crying is a baby's way to communicate, and I think it's important that we show our children we are listening and we believe what they are saying. I still think it's possible to disagree, with respect, with what they are saying.
In many other ways we have to tell our children no occasionally... obviously you try to be on the same page and set the stage not to come into disagreement, but it's going to happen to everyone... unless you're always saying no to yourself, which isn't in the end emotionally healthy for your child either.
I coslept, continue to, and my babies don't sleep through the night. They would nurse when they wanted to, and we would both be awake, certainly me! It's a magical time the first few minutes, but after that I start to get pretty tired, and after 45 minutes I start to go a little insane. My babies knew that at the slightest whimper I'd listen and respond to them - but that I didn't always give them exactly what they wanted in that moment, at that moment. I don't do it in the daytime, and I don't at night either. Everything is negotiated and a give and take. As the adult, I have a special responsibility to take a broad perspective, and to give profoundly of myself, but my goal is to respond with intelligence and respect, not to just automatically do what they ask.
Yes, I do say no to my kids. I say no when they ask to go to the park while I'm making dinner. I say no when they ask to go outside in the winter in shorts. I say no when they ask to play with a sharp knife. But I do not say no when they tell me that they are scared.
My instinct (altho sometimes ignored) has always been to parent consciously during the day and the night. The truth is- I stink at night-time parenting. I'm a grumpy, sorry wreck of a woman during the first year. (If I could give birth to a one-year old, I think it might just be paradise.) So when my girls were not good sleepers, I tried lots of books and ideas.
I did like all the sleep information in Elizabeth Pantley's books. I also like a question I remember from the beginning - something like this: Do you really have a sleep problem? Or do other people have a problem with your children's sleep?
What a concept for me. Because even tho I really wanted to get some sleep, I really wanted to trust my instincts. I did great the first time around. I struggled more trusting myself the second time, when I had to function all day with two kids (one who didn't nap) and on limited sleep.
When I got desperate enough, I tried a CIO method (a book loaned from a friend) and it seemed to work after a few days. And then it totally back-fired. Our result is that it has taken 6 months of concentrated effort of reassuring dd#2 that she can trust us; that we're not going to leave her alone. It is truly heartbreaking for me, because my instincts rejected CIO outright, but the "judgment prior to investigation" argument wormed in.
We're finally starting to see some progress with our relationship and trust, day and night. I will NEVER leave a child (anyone's child) to cry again. And truthfully I get a little angry when I read comments like "when ferber comes up it seems that all rational thinking goes out..." It was my rational thinking over my instinct and emotion that was the real problem.
So Annie, I'm glad you stay true to your beliefs and don't compromise. I am glad there are voices saying this is not ok. I wish I had heard them more loudly before. But I know I won't make this mistake again.
K
I don't want to get involved in this CIO discussion but I just wanted to chime in here that I am a person that is not affected by a baby's cry. I respond to my baby's cry knowing that he/she is now awake or that she/he is tired or needs something but the crying itself does not bother me.
An example of this is one night we went to visit a couple and for some reason ds just starting wailing. He must have cried for at least an hour, I tried to nurse him, rock him, change him - anything and everything I could possibly think of, I tried and he would not stop crying. The woman I was visiting said "wow, you're really calm" and I just shrugged "I"m doing everything I can..."
I didn't like that he was crying but it didn't make me upset and I didn't think that there was something wrong with him...I just held him and eventually he went to sleep and I finished my visit.
Now if my child has a cry of "I'm hurt" like on Tuesday when my dd (10mths) got a wasp sting, then I have an inner reaction that says "you're baby is in trouble"...
I guess I know that I am meeting my children's needs and if I'm not, I'm trying to be aware of their changes and needs as they come up and I also know that I have bad days or days that I'm just not happy...so I expect that my children will have days like that too.
And just to state it again, I do respond to my baby when he/she cries - I just don't have an emotional or physical reaction to the cry.
i consulted with my pediatrician, who i hold in high regards. she assured me it was perfectly fine. he did not vomit every night.
my instincts told me that he was fine. and guess what...he is fine.
i stopped letting him cry it out. it wasn't working. despite the fact that he is FINE. he just isn't a sleeper.
he is now almost 6. and he is FINE. but still does not sleep through the night.
my children, all 3 of them, are turning out terrific. despite the fact that some of them have been left to cio.
i repressed it by shutting my door, turning on the tv and hiding under my pillow. but if you read my comment...i stopped. after he vomited. perhaps i didn't make that point strong enough.
again...each to their own.
noted.
but it is important to remember that you have, admittedly, never read ferber, so it's kinda hard not to think that, although instinctual as you claim, your reaction is misinformed, or ill-informed, or alternatively, under-informed. since your arguments against ferber are very narrow in scope and focus entirely on CIO or graduation. if the book were only about that, it would be very short indeed.
found a great review by a well researched parent of how ferber worked for them, similar to our story. it was worth the read.
http://tiny.cc/gdznm
truly signing off
:)
dz.
yes, a scared child does need comfort and reassurance, but there is not only one way to do that. whatever way you do show them to find comfort, they will learn that if they are able. i think the emotions they pick up on from you are going to be more prominent than the mechanics of the exact methods you use. the highest priority is to teach them in a emotionally healthy and positive way - and the *easiest* way to do this is with your continual presence... but i don't discount the possibility that there are other ways in individual circumstances with individual personalities involved. just as i think the easiest way to nurture your baby is through exclusive breastfeeding, but i don't discount that you can be an attached and responsive parent and nurture your baby without exclusive breastfeeding.
it's not about telling them no, you shouldn't be scared, or pretending that they aren't, but instead showing them how you would like them to cope when they are scared. my daughter got scared on airplanes starting around 1 year old - we didn't stop flying, but we talked to her about it, we modeled how we make ourselves feel comfortable in airplanes, we play-acted airplane trips while at home, we gave her comfort measures on the airplane (nursing, hand holding, distraction, snacks). if she continued to react badly to flying then we would know those approaches weren't working, and maybe we should avoid it altogether at least until she got to a more mature developmental stage. we never told her she shouldn't be scared or told her we didn't care about it. we cared, and we tried to help train her to become accustomed to the situation.
Again, the whole point of this post was that it doesn't matter how great Ferber's book is. If there is a section that suggests graduated extinction is an appropriate way to get a baby to sleep, then I cannot recommend that book. I have confirmed through personal sources, through Internet sources, and by flipping through the book at the bookstore that it does in fact contain information on how to do graduated extinction. So it is not a book I will recommend. There is plenty of great information on infant sleep, how much sleep they need, sleep patterns, sleep associations, etc. etc. etc. in the Elizabeth Pantley books, so I don't need to buy a CIO book to get that info.
I'm so unread on sleep-training (when my daughter was four-months old we showed her the SleepEasy solutions video and told her to pay attention, and that night she slept through the night on her own) that I actually don't understand the data or the authorities that get thrown around in these discussions.
What's the reason to think that short, medium, or long periods of crying alone are damaging? What's the damage? Is there a way to figure out what a sleep-damaged child looks like at 2, 5, 10, 20 years old?
I read a lot of comments to the effect that "I couldn't handle hearing the baby crying." And instinct goes a long way, sometimes. But instinct is also developed for a different kind of world. The math on instinctual evolutionary changes is bad for thinking that an instinct about something that developed millennia ago will be helpful now. Why do we think our instinct is tracking something true?
And do parents who oppose CIO stop the car every time their baby cries from the backseat? Sometimes? Never (because cars are somehow different)? Is this just about nighttime routines, home routines, or every case in which a child sleeps?
Epistemology, how we know what we claim to know, matters a lot here, I think. Traditionally, empirical evidence is mustered against innate ideas, but here it seems like both camps are going with their innate beliefs and then hurling empirical evidence at each other while each ignores the other's evidence. Because the argument isn't about the data, it's about some holistic belief that is inured to evidentiary changes, and inconvenient data can be ignored if you have convenient data and a gut feeling.
Actually dusty I did you read you. I get that you are a means justifies the end kinda person.
Reverse that and it'll be what I meant.
Backpacking Dad: Those are a lot of questions!
1) There is evidence that excessive crying and not having cries responded to is harmful. I talk about some of that evidence in my post on the http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/07/05/no-cry-it-out/" rel="nofollow">10 reasons why we don't do cry it out. Most people don't disagree with that. What the proponents of CIO tend to argue is that some extensive crying at night, for a while, to teach a child to sleep is not the same as generally being unresponsive to an infant's needs all the time. Among those that agree with some brand of CIO there are a multitude of variations on how far you can let it go...i.e. how young is too young, how much crying it too much crying, etc. I tend to believe that http://phdinparenting.com/2008/08/11/cry-it-out-cio-is-it-harmful-or-helpful/" rel="nofollow">different human beings are capable of handling different amounts of stress and that we can't know which baby cry it out will be "okay" for and which ones it will not be okay for.
2) In terms of what a victim of cry it out looks like at 2, 5, 10 or 20 years old (I assume that is what you meant by "sleep-damaged" and that you didn't mean sleep deprived, because that would be a different thing altogether), I think it depends. The brain is an interesting, sometimes fragile, and sometimes resilient thing. I talked about some of the possibilities in my post on http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/07/05/no-cry-it-out/" rel="nofollow">our 10 reasons, but there really isn't one picture you can paint of what the result is.
3) Do parents who oppose CIO stop the car every time their baby cries in the backseat? I don't know what everyone does. I can tell you what we do. We respond to our kids the best we can in that situation. Sometimes that means handing them a pacifier, sometimes putting on some music, sometimes talking to them, sometimes having one parent ride in the back seat with the baby. If the baby is truly distressed, then yes I would stop, comfort, and nurse my baby. But I would try other things to calm the baby down first.
4) There is no concrete data that 5 minutes of crying or even 15 minutes of crying is going to harm an infant forever. There is concrete data that excessive crying is harmful. Where the problem comes in is that we don't know at what stage it becomes excessive and I assume that it is different for different people. While I think that is important, my reasons for not doing CIO are not just about the "harm" it might cause in a physical/physiological/psychological sense, but also about the harm it might cause in my relationship with my child. For me it is about how I treat other human beings. I don't think it is right to put a baby in a room, shut the door, and ignore them. Same as I don't think it is right to bully people, to make fun of people, etc.
LOL...I thought that was backwards Carol. I was trying to figure out what on earth you meant!
To answer the question of how a CIO victim looks at 2, 5, 10, or 20 years old, I want to point out something about myself: I started developing symptoms of narcolepsy (a sleep disorder) around age 8-10, which started at that time with a sleep paralysis episode accompanied by a hypnopompic hallucination. I have since struggled with it all my life (I'm now 45) and now take Ritalin to help keep me awake during the day. Did the CIO actually *cause* this? Well, no one can say exactly, but as Annie said, the brain can be a fragile thing, so who knows?
Also as far as stopping the car when the baby cries, we do the same thing as Annie describes she does: We try to do what we can while the car is still moving, but if it gets out of hand, we stop and nurse and get the baby comfortable, then we move on.
Thanks for inspiring me to finally write the post that's been sitting and waiting to be told.
This is EXACTLY how I feel. There were several times in my daughter's very colicky first 3 months of life when people suggested we let her CIO and I would reply with this. *high five*
I'm glad you posted this, so I know never to hold out hope you will recommend my book. :D
I respect your opinion and definitely understand why you wouldn't recommend these two books. Ferber's book has one method and that is the interval visits as you described. Weissbluth, while he does give a choice of methods, he pushes extinction the most and there is no question about that. There are several other books I'm sure you wouldn't recommend for the same reason.
I know I won't ever change your mind about cry-it-out nor do I want to. It certainly isn't for everyone. The only reason I decided to post a comment (because I wasn't going to at first) is only for readers who aren't sure about the two extremes of the argument on cry-it-out. I even debated Pantley about it on Opposing Views here: http://www.opposingviews.com/questions/should-you-let-your-child-cry-it-out so you can read a lot of my arguments on why it's not everyone, but is for some, there.
Anyone who calls cry-it-out the "easy way out" already tells me that their position is extreme and judgmental. I'm sure you already know you're being judgmental, so I hope that isn't being offensive. You are telling parents that they are worse parents than you because of this ONE decision they have made about their child and what might be best for their family.
My whole website is dedicated to baby sleep and parents finding their own way to parent their child. I personally don't know their situation and so I am not one to say what is right or wrong for them. My job is to help them find their way and make recommendations based on their unique situation. I would say 95%, if not more, of my clients don't ever have to do cry-it-out, but those who do are not supported any less from me.
Although I am able to help a lot of parents without cry-it-out, I personally chose to use it. It wasn't because I saw anything easy about it. It was because I saw the effects of lack of sleep had on my son (and still have almost 4 years later) when he doesn't get enough sleep. I saw that it was taking me more than 3 hours to put him to bed only to redo it every 2 hours all night. I saw that co-sleeping wasn't working for us either. I made a choice best for our family and never regret it given the boy I see in front of me today. My younger son is very different and we never had to go through the same things with him as we did with our first.
The main thing about all these choices in ways to help your baby learn to fall asleep and stay asleep is that you need to find what works for his or her personality and temperament. Not all babies respond the same way to "no cry" methods nor do all respond the same to cry-it-out (I've helped many parents who tried cry-it-out and it didn't work, so I helped them find a method that worked for THEIR BABY).
Furthermore, the way a parent responds to sleep deprivation is different. How YOU react to being sleep deprived will be different than another parent. And, given you have successfully co-slept, you might not have even had much sleep deprivation at all and that's great! It's simply not that way for everyone. One mom might just need two cups of coffee rather than one while another parent can barely function during the day. One mom might need to work as a nurse for 12 hours and can't concentrate. A stay-at-home mom might not interact with her baby as much because she's so tired and would rather be a better mom in the day and feels she's failing as a mom because she has no energy to do the things she wanted to do staying home with her baby.
There are so many situations out there and all are unique. I get e-mail from parents every day about their sleep struggles. I think when you hear so many parents' stories and "hear" the desperation in their cry for help, you get a different perspective and it drives home EVERY DAY that everyone's situation is truly unique. Sleep deprivation is hard and until you truly go through it, I don't think you can "get it" and even then it's probably different than the mom's next door. I am not sure how many people you have helped one-on-one, so I'm not sure how many different temperaments you've been exposed to, but it does matter. Not saying that you would change your position, but you might not judge as harshly.
There is a lot in between sleep deprivation and cry-it-out and I'm certainly not a cry-it-out pusher, but I do empower parents on my site by giving them as much information I can to make an informed decision. And, I try to empower these parents to know that they know THEIR baby best and to have confidence in making decisions about what's best for THEIR family. I try never to judge because I'm not walking in their shoes.
@Nicole:
I don't think that parents that have tried everything else there is and then eventually resort to cry-it-out are taking the "easy way out". I think they are very desperate and at the end of their rope and don't know what else to do. However, there are also other parents who have not tried everything else. Ones who will see that chapter on sleep training and skip straight to that because they don't want to do all of the work that is required. And if the book says it is okay, then it must be okay. There are plenty of people who say that the baby is X months old, so it is time to start the sleep training.
I know people who have spanked their kids out of desperation because they didn't know what else to do. I know people who swear that spanking is the best way to discipline children. In my book, there is a big difference between those two situations. I don't judge a parent who spanks out of desperation. But I also won't recommend a book that suggests spanking is an appropriate discipline strategy. That is also how I feel about cry it out. I try not to judge individual parents who have resorted to it in desperation. But I do think it is wrong and I will not recommend a book that suggests it as a strategy.
My two children were very different with regards to sleep. We co-slept with both, but my son woke up every 2 to 3 hours for the longest time, whereas my daughter slept for long stretches right from birth.
I have worked one-on-one with a lot of families as a moderator of an attachment parenting support board. I have helped people to get through rough times. I have suggested http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/02/28/gentle-baby-and-toddler-sleep-tips/" rel="nofollow">gentle methods that could improve their baby's sleep. I have helped them to see that this too shall pass. I have helped them to have realistic expectations about infant sleep. I have helped them get help with nighttime parenting from a spouse. You are right. Each person's situation is unique and what works for one may not work for another and that is why a book like Pantley's with so many different suggestions for different families is so great. That is why conversing with a mom or dad about their situation is helpful when coming up with solutions. But for me cry it out will never be one of the solutions that I can recommend.
I do understand what you are saying about not recommending the books because of chapters in them. When you feel that strongly about something like cry-it-out, it makes sense you wouldn't recommend them. I can't speak about all parents out there, but most I seem to come across never read a book and just decide to do what's in them because it's in a book. Most people seem to read 3-5 books (Pantley, Sears, Weissbluth, Ferber, and West) and still are more confused than ever about what to do and where to start.
I think all this also depends on how you define "cry it out". For me, having a newborn at 8 weeks cry all night to stop feedings is VERY different than having an 11 month old learn to sleep without replacing a pacifier 10 times per night. For us, we only focused on bedtime for a long time. And, after that it got 10 times better. I breastfed for a year and fed both boys AT NIGHT up through a year. Those adamantly against cry-it-out seem to paint a picture that you never tend to your child at night ever again and it's just so not that way. Sometimes it's more about helping them learn a new way to fall asleep and yes, sometimes, they aren't happy about it. Who would be? Just because they only know of one way to fall asleep does not mean they can't learn a new way. The only way they can complain is by crying because that is the only way they can communicate. Does that mean they always get what they want at night because they cry, but not during the day? Because I'm quite sure you wouldn't let your baby get anything she wants just because she is crying in the daytime.
As I said before, cry it out is never a first recommendation of mine and for long-time co-sleepers the first thing I will say to new clients is that it's an unfair extreme to go from sleeping all night next to mom and dad to crying alone in another room and it's just not something I can feel good about recommending. For some situations when you have tried the "gentle methods" as you describe and in the end if your baby is simply resisting a change, I do think it's okay that they complain some. We will probably just always disagree about the complaining thing. :) Again, it highly depends on the age of the baby, whether there really is a problem (expectations adjustment), and what's going on, which takes me back to a parent knows their situation best. My goal is to help parents formulate a plan that does fit their situation, if it warrants it because when you're sleep deprived, the hardest part is coming up with the plan.
Nicole: With regards to the complaining thing, my thought is that until they are old enough to explain with words why they are "complaining" I am not prepared to judge the intentions behind their cries. I will simply respond to them. I will make sure that I am there and that I offer what comfort I can. It doesn't mean that I will get up and play with them, but I will ensure that they have what they need. Once my kids are old enough to talk and tell me what is going on, then I can make decisions about whether it is complaining or if it is a true need because they can use words to explain that to me.